Sweet Agatha should win, it's a whole new gaming experience, brilliantly packaged and presented.

D&D 4th edition should win; it's the best designed game out of the lot and provides and amazing play experience.

Mouse Guard is the game I wish I had back when I was 8 instead of Red Box D&D.

But even with that I have to back Jeepform. It solved a design problem that came up a lot on The Forge back in 2000-2002 range and that everyone kind of was resigned to the idea that it couldn't really be done. Guess we were wrong. More importantly I'm glad we were wrong.

Jesse

D&D 4th edition should win; it's the best designed game out of the lot and provides an amazing play experience.

this.

What is the Diana Jones Award supposed to award, anyway? Is it "The Best", or "The Most Innovative", "Awesomeness", or what?

Also, interesting topic, although it's about as loaded as a gun made entirely of cocks.

-Andy

About the Diana Jones Award:

What is the Diana Jones Award?

The Diana Jones Award is an annual award created to publicly acknowledge excellence in gaming. The award was first made for the year 2000, and the first award ceremony was on August 4, 2001.

Why is this award different?

The Diana Jones Award is decided on merit, not popularity or commercial success. You may never have heard of some of the nominees, but you can be certain that they are all outstanding in their fields. What is more, because the winner is chosen by a closed, anonymous committee, it is impossible for a manufacturer or publisher to stuff the ballot or interfere with the voting.

What is ‘Excellence in Gaming’?

The Diana Jones Award is designed to reward any combination of achievement, innovation, and anything that has benefited or advanced the hobby and industry as a whole; or which has had the greatest positive effect on games and gaming; or which, in the opinion of the judging committee, shows or exemplifies gaming at its best.

The precise interpretation of ‘excellence in gaming’ is left to the discretion of the individual judges, who approach the subject from many different backgrounds and perspectives. Innovation, artistic merit, commercial success, cultural significance, longevity and several other factors are all considered.

Posted By: Adam Drayor which has had the greatest positive effect on games and gaming;

Jeepform for the Win!

I played Dominion today so that I could have experience with all the nominees (and I was at a birthday party where someone had it).

I have experience with all the nominees but I don't know much about the Diana Jones award itself. I'm having trouble parsing what the "best demonstrated the quality of excellence in the world of hobby-gaming" means.

For overall excellence of what the world of hobby-gaming has to offer, there is no question... Mouse Guard. It's traditional enough that many D&D players accept it, it's innovative enough that it expands how people play, it's an elegant design, it's one of the best written texts that explains what Roleplaying is and tells you how to actually do it, and it's friendly to new players.

For pure innovation, Dominion or Sweet Agatha. If I had to choose, I would go with Sweet Agatha. But I'm biased. It's really close.

For most inspiring, Jeepform.

For who I want to win, Sweet Agatha.

I think Mouseguard is the most versatile and thorough of the games presented. It should win.

(I frankly don't like 'Jeepform' as a potential awards winner, the award should go to someone or a team of someones that are responsible for advancing Jeepform or promoting it or explicating it or whatever. Not that it's not worth recognizing or even perhaps deserving of an award, but would it make any sense to say 'die pool games!' or 'narration-passing games!' as an award winner? No. Let's give awards to people and teams, not to classifications.)

As wonderful as Mouse Guard is (I agree it does set a new bar for game texts), I think 4E is one of the most amazing games in years design-wise. It's the best thing WotC's ever done by a long shot, including M:tG. They deserve something for completely reinventing the seminal game of this entire hobby. Whether that something is the Diana Jones award I'm not certain, but that would be my pick. It feels to me like it might be the first "big company" game where they first sat down and said, "Okay, what are we actually trying to do here?" That's simply got to "advance the hobby and industry as a whole."

I don't own Sweet Agatha yet; I'll get around to it eventually. I've been on a free games/playtest games kick for a year or so that puts me a little behind the curve on some of the new stuff that you actually have to buy (and then destroy). ;)

Posted By: JDCorley(I frankly don't like 'Jeepform' as a potential awards winner, the award should go to someone or a team of someones that are responsible for advancing Jeepform or promoting it or explicating it or whatever

Jason already answered to this, but if you want to see "the team", their faces are HERE ;-)

I think if Vi Aker Jeep wins it will be a sad reflection of the utter disdain that American game designers hold American live-action traditions in, and their corresponding utter ignorance of their own live-action traditions. Not that Vi Aker haven't done interesting things, but the fundamentals of their innovation have been done by the Assassin's guild -- to name one -- for years.

I also hope it's not Dominion, just because I'd like it to be won by someone who actually cares about the award.

I'm saying it would be a sad commentary on the utter ignorance of American tabletop game designers: Not just indie people but also the 90s gametelligentsia that the DJA represents. Fuckers need to educate themselves.

Jeep should win. It's the most innovative, interesting, new thing. It does stuff no one has ever done ever anywhere.

You're leaving out the part where you tell us where we might go to educate ourselves. I haven't the faintest idea where to begin, but I would like to.

does ben ever do that?

and, that aside, what do you suppose you'd learn from harry potter dressup kids and twilight forum-fic writers? why edward and hermione were always meant for each other?

I agree with Robert Bohl, which never happens.

I'd like to see the award go to something excitingly different. That could be Sweet Agatha, but Jeepform is so astonishingly weird that I'd love to see it (or them) win the award.

Thanks for the interesting discussion points. Don't let this thread descend into an argument about stupid stuff.

Graham

Posted By: GrahamI agree with Robert Bohl, which never happens.

If it helps your equanimity, I am wildly overstating my point for satirical purposes (though it's genuinely what I'd vote for).

The only part that makes me feel weird about naming Jeepform is that the game part seems mostly absent in it. But it doesn't bother me enough to make me change my non-voting vote.

Posted By: shreyasand, that aside, what do you suppose you'd learn from harry potter dressup kids and twilight forum-fic writers? why edward and hermione were always meant for each other?

I think I would like to learn how you celebrate a character you love by putting them in a situation that is very different from the "natural" fit for the character. What is being done exactly in such roleplays? It is very interesting to me.

Were you joking?

I think the fanfic/simming/forum-RP thing is probably the biggest development in roleplaying since D&D. Certainly the numbers support that idea.

Posted By: Paul Czege
What editions of OD&D/AD&D/D&D have you played?

Paul

Paul, I've played 1st through to 4th editions. I don't want to derail or anything, but I just don't see anything revolutionary in 4e. The rules seem no more interested in helping to create an interesting story or fostering creativity than earlier editions, so it surprises me that people here are any more excited about 4e than they were about 3e.

Posted By: Ben Lehman Not that Vi Aker haven't done interesting things, but the fundamentals of their innovation have been done by the Assassin's guild -- to name one -- for years.

I for one am voraciously interested in all the things done by our indigenous larping traditions. (US and Canadian) Can only assimilate so many games at a time, but I'm working on it!

I love the stuff being done by LARPA for, example. Intercon is a fantastic slice of innovative, original US larp writing. I'd love to see them get the nod one of these days too.

I have never jeeped or sweet agatha'd. For all I know those things might each individually be way more cool than Mouse Guard and DnD combined in a giant mecha that is piloted by a pyromanical elven netrunner.

But I do know Mouse Guard and D&D4E. I've played both a bunch, and I think they each deserve to be recognized. Were I part of the shadowy DJ cabal, I would vote for the Mouse.

4E is a game that put the fun back in D&D for me. I believe that its chief virtues are its uncompromising focus on tactically rich miniature play, its online support (which is awesome, if less than promised), and the use of exception-based design to permute a mechanical base of medium complexity into something that feels like it could be fresh for quite some time. I like how its rules try to make everyone at the table relevant all the time. I treasure its rules organization. Putting all the chunky stuff into card-size hunks of text makes all those exceptions much, much easier to manage. And I've also been thinking lately about how much I appreciate the default fluff. I like how there is just the vaguest suggestion of a backstory in the core texts -- something mildly familiar to all players, and something that each table can riff on and make their own, something that gives my imagination a boost into DnDspace.

Alas, 4E is also an evolving work, with many loose ends and and unpatched bugs that kind of justify a 4.5E or a 4E Revised. The power escalation between MMI and MMII was kind of shocking. The game feels unfinished, rushed to market. I'm also grumpy about Wizards' sudden decision to get out of the PDF business. Searchable PDFs are almost a necessity for me these days, and PDF updates could be tied into the DnDinsider service to all kinds of good effect. I also wish their prepackaged adventures exploited the tactical richness of their system a bit better. Reading a 4E D&D module is like reading a manual to Photoshop that doesn't ever mention layers.

So D&D is great, but is not the greatest.

On the other hand, Mouse Guard is a humming hand-built German sedan of fun. The game feels complete in one volume and won't require a second edition or any expansions down the road. That volume is beautiful and well-organized. The premise is surprisingly compelling and evoked perfectly by the ruleset.

This game doesn't just enable my fun -- it provokes it. I love how the advancement system makes me seek out tasks that are improbable or impossible to succeed at. I love the Nature rules, which communicate the exceptionality of the guard mice, which give me a powerful and limited resource to whomp ass with, and which feel driftable to everything from Dogs to Jedi. I love the tripartite flagging of the Beliefs, Instincts, and Goals.

Most of all, I love how Mouse Guard acknowledges the actual practices of the hobby instead of some idealized theory of it. I love how players who miss game sessions are rewarded for narrating what drew their mice away from the patrol, turning something that's a drag into something that's an opportunity. I love how the extended conflict rules encourage team play by breaking down the patrol into easily-organized little subteams. Mouse Patrols actual feel like little military units, instead of the swarms of leaderless ronin I see in other military-ish games.

Basically, in Mouse Guard, every elaborate bit feels justified, and that's why I'd vote for it. But I feel blessed to have them both.

Ticket to Ride's award is not mentioned on the box or in the pamphlet. It is on an awards section of the web site. Their Spiel des Jahres is prominently featured everywhere. Looking this up, I noticed that Board Game Geek doesn't have a separate page for Diana Jones award winners. Dominion's nomination is mentioned not at all.

The boardgame world has their own awards and structures that drive attention and sales to new games. Newness and innovation are routinely big winners and are almost sure to drive a bit of hotness as people try to find out more. The roleplaying field is much more driven by supplements and new editions and many of the awards seem to serve the giants of the field more than anything else. The Diana Jones Award serves a strong purpose there as an indicator of something different that gamers might be interested in.

I'm sure the Dominion team would be happy to get the award, but I'm also sure that it would be little more than an afterthought compared to their Spiel des Jahres. Dominion is past the point where it needs more publicity within the hobby.

Posted By: Jason MorningstarThe short list nominee is actually Vi åker Jeep, the collective, not Jeepform, the body of techniques they developed and promote.

On the front page of the DJA, it says this about the Jeep nominee: • Jeepform, a game-style from Scandinavia (fostered by the Vi åker jeep collective)

It seems to me that the nominee is actually Jeepform, the "style", and not the Vi åker Jeep collective.

Posted By: David Artman* an Origins Award winner, which did more "getting noticed" for indie publishers than any other product ever released, I'll wager.

You'll lose that wager. Luke already won an Origin Award for Burning Empires. Didn't get indie games much more noticed. (and the fact that you did forget about it tell how much)

And I find rather ironic that people who refuse to find anything "innovative" in the collective that created games like "Doubt" or "The Upgrade" or "GR" ("because we in America already did all of that! It's exactly like a boffer larp!" ;-) then applaud the 4th edition of D&D or the 4rd incarnation of the Burning Wheel system... ;-)

Don't get me wrong, in an award for "excellence" I would not see nothing wrong in a Mouse Guard victory. It's a EXCELLENT product. But if we are talking about innovation, Jeepform is (literally) in another continent.

Posted By: David ArtmanI concur: Jeepform shouldn't be nominated. It's not even a "system" per se--it's sort of a collection of techniques, sort of a manifesto on subject matter, sort of a reason to get naked in a room full of flour.

But that's how the DJAs work, David. They nominated a charity one year. It's expressly not about anything you can put your finger on.

Posted By: David Artmansort of a reason to get naked in a room full of flour.

Actually, I don't think that was Jeep. ;-)

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Please don't get sidetracked into discussing what the Diana Jones should, or has been, awarded for. Let's keep it focussed on the entries.

Graham

David, it was Child's Play and was nominated last year, despite having been around for many years prior. So no, no date of inception or anything like that.

[edit... ah, fuck it, never mind....]