Not a crime. (I actually think that selling ashcans is a crime, but that's a separate thread.)

nitpick: Empire of Dust isn't an ashcan, it's just struggling to be constantly available to purchase.

Related issue: the ashcan thing is dumb because people assume (or at least they did last year) that if they're seeing something for the first time, or if it was available and then wasn't and then is again, it's an ashcan. I can't count the number of times that I was asked, or it was assumed, that Annalise was an ashcan. Very frustrating.

All of which is to say, no, no crime in my eyes. But I'm just some guy without any ashcans.

Posted By: Nathan P.nitpick: Empire of Dust isn't an ashcan, it's just struggling to be constantly available to purchase.

Related issue: the ashcan thing is dumb because people assume (or at least they did last year) that if they're seeing something for the first time, or if it was available and then wasn't and then is again, it's an ashcan. I can't count the number of times that I was asked, or it was assumed, that Annalise was an ashcan. Very frustrating.

All of which is to say, no, no crime in my eyes. But I'm just some guy without any ashcans.

Sorry about that! I guess I'm feeling a similar type of frustration when people are talking about a game that sounds awesome...but ....I ...just.... can't.... get..... it ....yet!

Posted By: jessecoombsThat being said, I'll happily wait for Mythender, Action Castle, Danger Patrol, Empire of Dust, Land of Yeld, FreeMarket, PTA 3rd, Storming the Wizard's Tower, Misspent Youth, etc, etc... but I'm going to wait until they're out of the oven.

Note: some of those aren't in ashcan form (like Mythender, PTA 3 -- being pre-release/ EoD being already released).

Just a point of note that "in progress" != "free playtest" != "sold ashcan" != "half-baked game that is the final product" != "full-baked game", etc.

It sounds more like you're asking "Is it a crime to not want to run playtest editions of games?", since you did said you would play if someone else did run. And it doesn't have the loaded baggage term of "ashcan."

To which I answer: no, and as my friend I didn't expect you to run Mythender, but I have personally learned my lesson on publishing an ashcan, and will make sure when something is ready for public beta-ing, it would be something I think I'm happy to publish right then and there. Still, no expectations that folks uninterested in the making of sausage would try it.

Jesse, as the writer of one of the named games, absolutely not! If it suits your playstyle more, or your preferences, I encourage you to forcefully and spitefully reject my ashcan (though don't give me shit about it unless you see a problem in the actual text).

I made ashcans for people who wanted them. I can't imagine how it can in any way say anything bad about you that you don't. I'm confused.

Ryan: Yeah, I should have said playtest edition. I guess it's telling that the "ashcan" term lingered in my head and my vocabulary!

Robert: No spite, never! I guess I feel a bit left out sometimes when I'm not playing the new hotness because it's still in playtest.

No, if only because I'm very much of the same mindset.

I think it does become a bit of problem if you're designing games because of a reciprocity issue. It leads to this:

Me: "Hey, wanna play-test my game?"
Them: "Sure! Wanna play-test mine?"
Me: "No."

Which leaves you feeling like an ass. But then I don't even want to play test my design. I'm more hoping my designs will be discovered, someone will be inspired and write the game I'm trying to get at for me and then I can just play it when it's done.

So far, that hasn't happened.

The alternative is to hope to find some sycophantic fans who will cultishly play test everything you write without asking anything in return.

So far, that hasn't happened either.

Jesse

Hey, guys?

By our current standards, Prime Time Adventures was an ashcan. So was Dust Devils. We'd all be worse off if those weren't released when and how they were.

I don't really get the hostility towards the ashcan thing. It was never, "Here's my rough draft, buy it suckers!" It was meant to be, "I've got this game like 90% done, and it seems to work pretty well so far, but I need help getting through that last, painful 10%. I've got this photocopied and stapled thing for cheap if you're interested."

Of course, I'm not sure how much that intent has held true...

Personally, I haven't yet playtested anything for anyone else, but that's more to do with scheduling issues--I'm having a hard enough time getting folks together to try out the games I want to play--plus I've yet to see such a game whose concept is quite so grabby to me that I felt the immediate need to get folks together to play it. I guess what I'm saying is I'd do some playtesting, except the community has failed to produce any magical girl or super robot RPG ashcans/betas/whatever.

I'm glad there are people out there willing to playtest unfinished games--I've benefited from people doing just that with my creations every now and then--but I wouldn't in a million years dream of calling it an obligation or anything like that. If you're willing to try out one of my half-formed creations I'll be super-grateful, but I wouldn't fault anyone anywhere who doesn't want to go to the trouble.

What the fuck is this thread even about, I don't even want to play a tenth of the finished, completed, published games that exist and I don't feel bad at all, of course, I am a heartless monster, but COME ON PEOPLE customers don't bear obligations to purchase, not ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever EVER EVER EVER.

Posted By: jessecoombs
That being said, I'll happily wait for Mythender, Action Castle, Danger Patrol, Empire of Dust, Land of Yeld, FreeMarket, PTA 3rd, Storming the Wizard's Tower, Misspent Youth, etc, etc... but I'm going to wait until they're out of the oven.

This is interesting, because it seems ashcan now has a multitude of meanings.
To me, Danger Patrol and Storming the Wizards Tower are not ashcans at all - they are playtest versions of a game given out for free. It's only an ashcan for me if someone charges for it, like I think the first version of With Great Power, and Poison'd.

Some people enjoy playtesting; some don't, but the number of volunteers you get varies widely. We only want people who enjoy playtesting for its own sake, not those who seek a reward other than recognition. Their contribution is too valuable to be considered in monetary terms. For Graham's new adventure we got fifteen volunteer groups; for Skulduggery, ten. That said, with a few exceptions, out games are pretty thoroughly playtested before we send them out to external groups. Robin always playtests his games extensively with his own group, then we do, here.

We do playtesting regularly in our group, for example, last night we tested the resolution mechanic for Alien Disco Squad (we checked for hidden cameras first) and next week, it will be Misspent Youth.

But, no, why should there be any problem with people not wanting to playtest games? Life's too short if you don't enjoy it.

For what it's worth, and to give some perspective on what I said above about my feelings on playtest documents and ashcans:

I would say that my play experience is a 3-to-1 or maybe 4-to-1 ratio, playtests to polished games. I've played How We Came To Live Here, Transantiago, a bunch of games you haven't heard of.. I was in the first playtest group for Apocalypse World and for Beowulf, I haven't gotten a chance to play Annalise since it's been released, but I played it in playtest. Still haven't played Mountain Witch or Polaris or PTA or insert-mandatory-indie-game here. I've just never paid for the opportunity to playtest with anything but feedback to the author.

Posted By: Joshua A.C. Newman

Hey, guys?

By our current standards, Prime Time Adventures was an ashcan. So was Dust Devils. We'd all be worse off if those weren't released when and how they were.

What ARE the current standards for ashcans? I didn't think there were any, other than perhaps "The first release of a game," which is only a standard in public perception and actually ruins a lot of awesome fully-baked games with a false stigma of being half-finished (ie, Annalise).

I personally feel like the term ashcan is so loaded and ambiguous that it's lost all use, but that's a topic for another thread. I AM genuinely interested in what you feel the current standards for ashcans are.

Joshua, that is bullshit. There is a difference between an ashcan and a first edition of a game that later goes on to be revised. A huge difference. Dust Devils played fine in the first edition and so did PTA. They were finished games.

Elizabeth, the Ashcan Front had extremely specific goals and requirements for games to be marketed there as Ashcans. I suspect that not all of the books published (especially post-Front or otherwise independent of that project) met those criteria. This is a problem with the indie scene. The creators are the sole arbiter of what can and should be published, and if they choose to put out an incomplete or untested game nobody can stop them. It doesn't matter if they put the stamp of "ashcan" on it or not.

Posted By: Moreno R.I seems to remember one such edition for both PTA and Dust Devils.

Neither game had such an edition. With Great Power did, though.

-Andy

Jesse (Coombs):

I want you to be excited about things I make. And, yes, I want feedback on stuff I still have in the pipe. I don't want you to feel bad about not playing them if you don't, or be confused about what they are. So I mark them as playtests and as ashcans and whatever else. This means you can skip them easily, and others can know I want their feedback.

I don't think that anyone is doing anything bad in that equation; I don't think that anyone is "criminal" there - everyone is trying to get what they need, and what they like.

Sometimes, it's a mess, yeah, full of conflicting ideas and models and let-me-try-this-stupid-thing. And there's a reason for that:

It's because we're a mess.

Thank god.

Posted By: HohoPlaytesting sucks and you shouldn't feel obligated to do it. I hate playtesting.

Playtesting rocks and you should jump on the chance to do something new and exciting and challenging. I love playtesting.

Seriously, I love thinking about the game while I'm playing it. Love watching the moving parts do their dance. Even love noticing where they rub together or run into each other. Playtesting means that I get to do all that and I don't have to pay for the privilege (4e skill challenges, much hate). It means I get variety in my diet, at the cost of the occasional weird mushroom that gives me the head-spins. Even that's OK, because I like the occasional head-spin. And it means I get to see games evolve; when their designer is better than me, which is to say every time, it means I get to watch a skilled artisan in his workshop while he builds his astonishing machine.

Obviously, the magical theater isn't for everyone. Shreyas likes the magic bookstore. There are a lot of hidden doors, and a lot of ways to be a madman.

Hey Jesse,

I suppose it depends what you mean by designer, but really, if you ever house rule something (formally or informally), you're designing.

And I'm not saying this to pick nits or split hairs. I really think that it's important.

Darcy

I have several minds on the topic... Having run plenty of playtests / Ashcans. I would rather see more warning signs posted.. Do not easily be subdued by the new Hotty.

I find it hard work. It's not always fun. Can be frustrating, and feel like real work.
I feel I have made a commitment to this designer. Now I gotta make time to and really do what they have asked of me. And if I have promised a audio recording, I feel like an ass when I screw that up, or just let it sit on my hard drive.
It's too easy to just have fun, or say fuck this, it's broken. let's move on the the new hotness.

Now I wouldn't keep doing this if I didn't have fun. If the stories we made didn't move me.

On the selling of Ashcans, I am all for it. However don't expect me to buy it if I haven't read a lot about it, or played it.
I wish that designers would sell their Ashcan's at Dreamation, or be ready to pick up beta-testers. Could we get this for the Designer round table?

Yeah, Jesse, do what feels good. You post thoughtfully and without a quick anger;
already you are a boon to this community. You play games, and it soudns like you enjoy them,
and your co-players enjoy them.

I don't think you need to do more, you do enough.

& like Ogre says, if you wanna fake me out, i'll meet you in some alley when you don't expect it
and then we'll have a little game, won't we?

which i took to mean, by example, "you gotta do what you want".