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I'm Outta Here
1 XP: When you doubt your superior's wisdom internally
3 XP: When you explicitly rebel against good advice or an order from legitimate authority
5 XP: When you lie about obeying, attempt to disobey in secret, and are caught.
Buy-off: Leave your superior's care and strike out on your own, or humble yourself and submit to his authority
Tony, you're going a different way--that's what my intuition tells me.
The power of the approach we did, to me, is that when I say, "Hey I want to do a scene where I'm kayakwrecked," it's clear that I'm commenting on my relationship with authority, because that's the chain that scene is associated with.
So, like, the reward mechanic is going about this backward, "When you do this it's cool and we know it's about this other thing."
The freeform chain says, "Do things about this thing," and that lets me decide what's relevant to that; it's more expressive.
Posted By: Thomas RobertsonSo, using Tony's above example, what if I think that there's a much cooler thematic thing to be said by lying about obeeying andnotbeing caught? Sure I can still do it, but the mechanics actually discourage me from it because they explicitly reward me for taking the opposite path.But ... then ... you'd have built a different Key, wouldn't you? One where you get rewarded for disobeying and getting away with it.
Still. That is inflexible, it doesn't respond to what you are doing in play. We don't need this predetermination stuff and crunch stuff; it makes us trip.
If you reinterpret your character, what's more efficient? Treating your chain in a new way, or rewriting a Key so you get bling for doing different stuff?
edit: This is a difference between mechanical weight and mechanical constraint. When you're doing the latter, the former is like uncut grass; it gets under your feet, tangles you up, slows you down.
Heh. You guys are saying this all better than I am. I'll sit back and watch a while.
Ah, now I see our communication gap, which is that we're assuming a context you don't have. Let me describe with my example---
goal: Find New Teacher
So, this is being triangulated by several other things.
First thing: I have four Path slots; this is assigned to my Water path, which tells me, approximately, "Positive experiences on this path are linked to dealing with other water Tribe characters, or behaving receptively/adaptively; negative experiences are associated with freezing up, isolationism, stubbornness." It also tells me, "Air Path scenes segue into scenes for this path, and they lead into Earth Path scenes."
This gives me two other points of reference - what's going on in my Air Path (Make A Friend) and my Earth Path (Become A Pirate). That tells me what to frame out of and toward.
Finally, I have the starting-point and stated ending-point for my Path, which tell me my initial state and my character's initial intent.
So we don't have just one lodestar here; there's a whole constellation of information telling me where to go. Because I've got all this data here, I don't have an enormous amount of wiggle room per scene, but each scene immediately colours the next scene; on the whole the system is extremely limber and responsive.
(Now, regarding what I said earlier re: constraint vs. weight; I think that Keys are weighty but not constrainty; I don't feel like they guide my play effectively because they don't really contain data.)
So that's where it wins over Keys for me; I don't ever put something down on my sheet and later say, "This isn't cool;" because of the way that the system tracks exactly what I'm up to and constrains me based exactly on that, it's impossible for something on my sheet that's currently relevant to be uncool.
edit jon why do you use html
I'll collate my path scenes together in a moment so you can see the way that they influence one another.
Here they are. Markdown has the dumbest ordered-list syntax ever.
Posted By: TonyLBBut there does appear to be at leastsomecontention here that the freeform version has abilities that the mechanical version can't match, and I'd like to chat about those if people feel like it.
So, this is material for another thread, really, but I realised why Keys bug me so much - you're rewarding yourself for doing something. Why on earth are you doing that? It's crazy. I see reward mechanics as communication tools, and I really don't need such tools to talk to myself.
Are things you intend to do in game stuff you need to bribe yourself to do?
Sure, like, I don't like sweeping either. But if I've decided already that I'm playing Character A, who has this problem with his kung fu master for Reasons X Y and Z, and I find that dynamic and those reasons appealing, then isn't the chocolate pretzel built in?
Keys are never a reward just from yourself, and they are never a reward just from someone else in the play group. Everyone always has the nuclear option, at least, of walking away from play if you use that boring, or offensive, or broken key. They are always a reward from the whole group.
But um, yeah, back to the topic. I guess I am not totally clear on how this chains thing is expressing something more generally useful than "have a goal, and drive toward it with your actions."
I think we have an assumption gap here, too. I'm assuming, chains are the only systemic thing. It's impossible to have a reward mechanic that I care about because there isn't any other system crap to hang it from.
As soon as you start piling other stuff onto the system, I feel like you're violating some serious elegance constraints.
One thing that I want to ask you guys is whether only you can frame plot-arc scenes for your character, or whether a scene that someone else framed can advance your own arc.
I dunno. It might not have come up? We had two characters that were spatially separate.
I think that if we had played for longer, and based on the structure of the show (remembering that we sat down with this explicit intent: "Make and play a game such that a session of play looks exactly like an Avatar episode"), you have to advance your own arc if you are in someone else's scene - anytime you appear, you're somewhere in the arc cycle and your significant presence in the scene must be relevant to your position.
Posted By: misubaI guess I am not totally clear on how this chains thing is expressing something more generally useful than "have a goal, and drive toward it with your actions."
Brandon, you're quite right. It felt natural in play, so I was happy with it.
I'm trying to remember now and I can't, whether it felt like we were putting those there implicitly as consequence-obstacles, suggesting, "This is what you get when you try to strike out on your own" and, "This is getting in the way of your finding a new teacher." That seems plausible, but it's too late to remember for sure.
I think you're right in your suggestion that explicitly discussing Path-relevance of every scene would be better.
Posted By: JonathanWaltonJoshua:Yeah, basically. Writing down does several things. ... it really provides structure and pacing to play like you would not believe.
Oh, I'll believe. FLFS gets tons of mileage out of the simple concept of talking about the game first.
Posted By: JudaicDiablo
Here is where you lose me. I see how cool the storm is and that it is a part of your journey. However it doesn't really have anything to with your explicitly stated Goal of finding a new teacher. To my mind, the next scene relevant to your explicitly stated goal would be for him to meet the Pirate Captain (or whoever) and had a scene where he tries to decide if the pirate is the right person to become your new teacher.
Posted By: Matt Wilson
And dude, when am I going to see this game? I'm getting impatient. Gimme gimme.
Now I take your point that you find it useful to write it down. And maybe doing so with a particular structure will make that more likely to produce play. But then what it seems like you've got is less of a reward system or such, and just at tool for sketching out the story. Which is fine, it just doesn't seem to do much of anything in the way of promoting certain sorts of play or anything.
Posted By: neelkI'd be a little worried about being too "on the nose" if we limit ourselves to only listing scenes that are directly, obviously and immediately relevant to the Goal.
To Neelk: I do not disagree with you on this. In his specific example, the storm and kayakwreck are superfluous to his goal. I like your counter example though and those scene would contribute to his goal If we were to build a TSOY Key around it, it could look something like this (off the top of my head):
Key of the Searching Student
You are in search of a new master. You do not know who this person is or what he will teach you, but you will find him. When you take this key you may specify a person as your potential master for the purposes of this key. You may only have one potential master at a time.
1 XP: Have a Scene with your potential master (max 3 per session)
2 XP: Have a Scene where your potential master's actions sway your decision
5 XP: Risk great harm to win your potential master's approval
Buyoff: Accept a New Master or abandon your quest for a New Master.
In this case, I would record any scene where you choose a new potential master or earn the 2xp/5xp condition. Then things like sailing a storm and raiding a village matter.Posted By: JonathanWaltonUm, but doesn't the whole categorization of scenes promote future scenes that are based on previous scenes as well as the categories themselves? That's like the core of the mechanic.
To Jonathan: Not necessarily. The entire basis of story creation is about building on what has previously happened. Categorizing scenes is, IMO, an unnecessary step. I can see it being useful in terms looking back over what you have done and saying, "aha - I want to build on that" but it is ultimately an aspect of storytelling that happens naturally. Players who take better notes often get to spring something fun from the games "history" but any could do that, if they remembered it.
That being said, I will now negate that statement with this. Take a look at Art, Grace, and Guts (http://artgraceguts.pbwiki.com/ - a Vincent Baker game in the works) and look at the "We owe" system. This seems like the type of codified example of what you are describing. My opinions about the system at this point are not firm, but if you haven't seen it, you should.
...any could do that, if they remembered it.
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