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    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 1
    At GenCon, Thomas Robertson, Shreyas Sampat, and I (along with sideline commentary from Selene Tan), playtested this game concept that I had. The game itself was fun, but, more importantly, in the process of play we discovered something that I suspect might be one of the new, new things in design mechanics: "key chains." They are so awesome that I've really wished they existed in every game I've played since GenCon, because they were an excellent tool for:

    - solving the "okay, but what do we do?" problem
    - defining characters in a non-quantitative way (i.e. not using numbers)
    - character development
    - making the character sheet dynamic and not static
    - pacing (Shreyas: "I spent like ALL of the next day talking up how cool that pacing thing was")
    - scene framing
    - creating story arcs
    - defining "episodes" of play

    I'm gonna try to explain how they work and why they are awesome.

    "Key chains" are named after the Keys in Clinton R. Nixon's The Shadow of Yesterday. You can read about Keys here. Many people have noticed that Keys are an excellent way to track changing character goals and reward players for persuing them. They define what a character wants, but they can change over time based on the circumstances a character finds themselves in. They also leave most of these choices in the hands of individual players. Keys additionally serve as springboards to get the action going, because you know what a character's central issues are. Clinton gives credit to Sorcerer and The Riddle of Steel for informing his creation of Keys.

    The original idea behind Key Chains was to have every significant character decision or accomplishment be a fulfilment of a Key, improvizing Keys and stringing them together as needed until they formed a record of play and a record of character development. These improvized Keys would be very minimalist, simply a statement of the character's current goal or accomplishment, which would change over time. There would be no XP or other mechanics attached to it. These Keys would them be linked together in various thematic Chains, showing the character's advancement in various "story arcs" or "character arcs."

    I've encountered the idea of "arcs" mostly in writings about comics and film. The idea is that a character or story has various plots and subplots going on at once. A narrative chunk of progress along one of these plotlines is an "arc." For example, let's invent a Buffy episode. The main story arc look something like:

    Heroes Notice Weirdness
    Heroes React to Weirdness
    Heroes Investigate Weirdness
    Heroes Determine Cause of Weirdness
    Heroes Stop Weirdness

    While this is going on, Buffy might be experience her own character arc, which goes:

    Buffy Meets New Boy
    Buffy Flirts With New Boy
    Hints of New Boy Being Evil or Somehow Wrong
    Buffy Ignores Hints
    Buffy Dates New Boy
    Everything Goes Well For a While
    New Boy's Dark Secret Revealed

    Now, Buffy's character arc will probably take several episodes to complete, while the central story arc will probably be run through in a single episode. So a system to model this needs to be able to track multiple arcs across a variable number of sessions, and let them resolve at different rates. Also, in roleplaying, you don't necessarily know where a given arc is going to go, because the path of character and story development is generally negotiated by the players during the course of play. What other players choose to do affects the next step you able to take in completing various character and story arcs.

    [Note: this is all based on structuralist narratology, by the way. The granddaddy of this field is probably Vladamir Propp (1890-1970), who wrote Morphology of the Folktale in 1928.]

    Now, there are lots of ways you could potentially set up Key Chains. I'm fascinated by several distinct methods, but I'll just talk about one of them now.

    1. Declare and Record a Goal
    2. Frame a Scene Where You Make Progress Towards that Goal
    3. Record the Result
    4. Repeat Steps 2-3 Until You Are Satisfied with the Result
    5. The Result Is Most Often Not Your Original Goal

    In the GenCon playtest, we just took turns between players, letting each one frame a scene based on one of their Goals.

    Shreyas's character Kusa, for example, decided that he wanted a new "Relationship" trait. He declared and recorded the goal "Find New Teacher." His progress along this character arc went as follows:

    GOAL: Find New Teacher
    SCENE 1: I'm Outta Here (got into a fight with his old teacher and sailed off to look for another)
    SCENE 2: Caught in a Storm (in the midst of sailing, ran into a huge storm)
    SCENE 3: Kayakwrecked (his kayak is flipped and tossed by the waves, he ends up lost at sea)
    SCENE 4: Try Again (after being rescued by pirates, and working on some other arcs, he leaves the pirates to keep searching)

    This is as far as we got. Notice how Shreyas is now four scenes into working towards this Goal and really hasn't made much progress. This might change soon or it might not, depending on how the game goes. Eventually, he may decide to go with a result vastly different from his original goal, in which case he'd make up a new trait (not necessarily a "Relationship" one) based on what's happened to the character.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 2
    (Cont.)

    Note that this is a method which connects Key Chains to traits in order to create a method of tracking character development. You could use Key Chains in a ton of different ways as well:

    - a way to track changing relationships
    - give players XP for completing character arcs
    - have clearly defined arcs that can be completed to gain certain powers, skills, etc. (think: Quests)
    - have guidelines for ending sessions or campaigns once a number of arcs have been completed
    - structure a single session episode around a particular core arc (like the Buffy one above)
    - make a puzzle, with steps that must be completed in order to solve the puzzle
    - use a set of arcs to define complex, shifting objects like the political situation in a kingdom or the elements of a dreamworld
    - treat the various steps along an arc as traits in their own right, just constantly shifting ones
    - frame a conflict as an arc and use it as part of a resolution system

    Notice too that arcs could easily be non-linear as well, branching or looping if you wanted them too. They could become trees of the actions of a character's ancestors, some of which they themselves are doomed to repeat. You could keep the same paths, then, and have a new character work through them.

    In any case, I'm really excited about this idea and see hundreds of different uses in various aspects of design, so I just wanted to throw this out there.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 3
    New idea that just struck me.

    NPCs as Key Chains. They develop as characters find out more information about them. A great way to have stuff be determined in play and only create as much information as you need. The more players pursue certain NPCs or setting elements, the more complex and interesting they become.
  1.  # 4
    This is super-awesome and I can't wait to explore it more.

    A player in our current TSOY game is doing this, in a way. He (Brandon) posted about it a bit in the AP thread for the game, and I know he plans to come back and contstruct his character's whole narrative life by laying out his Key purchases and buyoffs.
    • CommentAuthorTonyLB
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 5
    Jonathan: Is the disconnect from mechanics (no XP, no other mechanic reward) a desired feature? Or is it just the current state of the art?

    Because right now, I'm not seeing the qualitative difference between Key Chains and (for instance) a character diary. Both make you conscious of where you are, and then you use that orientation to help roleplaying.

    But my experience with actual TSOY Keys is that they go well above and beyond that. They inform your actions through the powerful mechanics of reward. So, in your Shreyas example, I'd be more excited to see something like:

    I'm Outta Here
    1 XP: When you doubt your superior's wisdom internally
    3 XP: When you explicitly rebel against good advice or an order from legitimate authority
    5 XP: When you lie about obeying, attempt to disobey in secret, and are caught.

    Buy-off: Leave your superior's care and strike out on your own, or humble yourself and submit to his authority


    I look at that and I think "Wow, that excites ideas for playing out that phase that I wouldn't have thought of. Like, I want to hang around a while so that I can explicitly rebel ... at least three times, before it gets old and I decide to buy off the key and do something else with the points. And I probably want to sneak off and do something I've been forbidden to do, like challenge a local martial arts master and get my ass handed to me for 5XP, at least once."

    Does this sound like something in keeping with the direction you're going, or am I striking out in a different direction?
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 6

    Tony, you're going a different way--that's what my intuition tells me.

    The power of the approach we did, to me, is that when I say, "Hey I want to do a scene where I'm kayakwrecked," it's clear that I'm commenting on my relationship with authority, because that's the chain that scene is associated with.

    So, like, the reward mechanic is going about this backward, "When you do this it's cool and we know it's about this other thing."

    The freeform chain says, "Do things about this thing," and that lets me decide what's relevant to that; it's more expressive.

  2.  # 7
    I think Shreyas is right here. The problem with mechanical constraints is the problem with all constraints. They're constraining (duh).

    We talk a lot about how good constraints can push us to be creative, and it's true. But at the same time strong constraints reduce our options (which is how they push is to be creative).

    So, using Tony's above example, what if I think that there's a much cooler thematic thing to be said by lying about obeeying and not being caught? Sure I can still do it, but the mechanics actually discourage me from it because they explicitly reward me for taking the opposite path.

    That's not to say that mechanical constraints are bad, far from it. But it is to say that they're far from a perfect solution. I guess that lacking a better term for it, mechanical constraints like TSOY Keys are 'harder' than freeform stuff like the game we played at Gen Con.

    (I also feel that in the interests of disclosure I should note that I struggled with the very same issue while we were playing. I felt as if the chains we were forming were to 'soft'. Where was the mechanical bite? It was only after the game, when I looked back on the experience, that I started to realize just how well things worked out precisely because the mechanics didn't have to anticipate where we wanted to take the story.)

    Thomas
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 8
    John: I was just telling Shreyas that there are hints of what might become "setting development arcs" in Agon, where the GM gets more points to build setting in the middle of play, when the heroes rest. That could be taken someplace really interesting, where the setting develops as you explore it, based on the kinds of choices you make in play. Like a path rolling out just where the characters are pointing instead of the traditional railroad.

    Tony: What Shreyas said. One of the powers of this approach to key-chains (and there could be many) is the ability to create things as you go, instead of pre-determining them beforehand. Sure, Keys are sorta open-ended. They don't make you fulfill them. You could buy them off instead. They have multiple ways out. But the kind of freeform chains we're talking about ask you to create the exit from where you are, the one that leads to the place you will be. They don't show you a bunch of doors, they hand you a sledge hammer and let you pick which wall to bash down.

    In John Kim's Push article, he described a game in which the group was totally not interested in this whole section of the castle that he designed, so he had to make up a bunch of detail about this other thing they were interested in. And I guess that's what I'm more interested in modeling here. Not encouraging the players to make certain kinds of choices, but framing and supporting their choices in a way that makes them consistent, meaningful, and recording them so that they provide background and support for future choices.

    Also, this kind of freeform mechanic could totally be tied more strongly into mechanics. We're just beginning to explore it now.
    • CommentAuthorTonyLB
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 9
    Posted By: Thomas RobertsonSo, using Tony's above example, what if I think that there's a much cooler thematic thing to be said by lying about obeeying andnotbeing caught? Sure I can still do it, but the mechanics actually discourage me from it because they explicitly reward me for taking the opposite path.
    But ... then ... you'd have built a different Key, wouldn't you? One where you get rewarded for disobeying and getting away with it.

    I'm not talking about handing people these Keys out of the rule-book. They should totally be made up when the person takes them. I'm talking about, when the guy says "My guy should have a problem with authority" saying "Okay, take a few minutes and write up what you, personally, think a problem with authority should be about. Then play to that."
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006 edited
     # 10

    Still. That is inflexible, it doesn't respond to what you are doing in play. We don't need this predetermination stuff and crunch stuff; it makes us trip.

    If you reinterpret your character, what's more efficient? Treating your chain in a new way, or rewriting a Key so you get bling for doing different stuff?

    edit: This is a difference between mechanical weight and mechanical constraint. When you're doing the latter, the former is like uncut grass; it gets under your feet, tangles you up, slows you down.

    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 11
    Or we could just write down "Annoyed with Authority" and start framing scenes about that very subject (to record underneath that heading). Isn't that faster? And it does pretty much the same thing?

    I mean, if you're like "I'd rather have a reward mechanic tied in," then fine. But there's different ways to do that. Give people XP for completing a bunch of scenes in which they rebel against authority. And then you don't have to spend the prep time. You just play and you get XP for doing cool stuff, whatever that cool stuff is, instead of doing specific kinds of cool stuff that you happened to plan for in advance.
  3.  # 12
    Tony,

    That's true, but I think it's missing my fundamental point (which, looking back, is sort of unclear).

    The point is that making Keys ahead of time requires that you know what you want to explore ahead of time. It constrains some amount of the emergent stuff that happens if you're just making things up as you go. What if, when I first start down this path, I think I want to get caught, so I make up the Key the first way, but then when the time finally comes, I realize that I actually want to get away with it?

    Of course it may turn out that, when all is said and done, everyone involved has more fun and enjoys the story more if we stick with my initial impression and I get caught despite my last minute misgivings about it. But then again, maybe the story and everyone's enjoyment is lessened.

    It's not that one way is better than the other, it's that each one has their advantages and disadvantages. And at the moment, I feel like I haven't really explored the advantages of the less mechanical method, so that's what I'm interested in today.

    Crossposted with Shreyas and Jon. Hey, Shreyas! Hey, Jon! Let's all dog-pile Tony!

    Thomas
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 13
    I like this tag-team thing, actually. Tony's tough enough to take it and it gives us 3 different perspectives on this same experience we had.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 14

    Heh. You guys are saying this all better than I am. I'll sit back and watch a while.

    •  
      CommentAuthorMikeRM
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 15
    I'm kind-of-sort-of doing something a little like this in Errantry (which is based on TSOY). As well as Keys, you have Obligations, which you get by being bloodied in Bringing Down the Pain. When you fulfil an Obligation you get XP. I haven't decided yet who chooses the obligation you get - the player or the Tenan (temporary GM). You have to fulfil all your obligations in order to consider your quest complete.

    Hmm, if I tied them more tightly to Boons (which you must get a certain number of in order to complete the quest...).

    Hmmm.

    (They are mechanical, though.)
    • CommentAuthorTonyLB
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 16
    Yeah, I totally like the dog-pile.

    Here's my take on this: I don't buy that the constraints make it harder to tell a story. I feel, and my experience backs me, that they make it much, much easier. They beat the hell out of writer's block and leave it bleeding in an alley.

    If I've got a huge open canvas, and my only pole star is "I ought to be annoyed with authority," that is neither faster nor easier than being told "Okay, Tony, here's your scene: You want to do one of these three things ... the 5XP one if you can, the 3XP one if you can't, and the 1XP thing if that's all you can manage."

    More structure makes for better, easier, more engaging play. If you find that the constraints are starting to chafe? Well guess what ... that's your cue to sell out of that Key and buy into a different one. I don't buy the notion that it's a strait-jacket if it has no buckles, and you can shrug your way out of it with a moment's effort.

    Now, if you just want to examine the free-form style of this, have at it. Ain't nothin' wrong with that. But there does appear to be at least some contention here that the freeform version has abilities that the mechanical version can't match, and I'd like to chat about those if people feel like it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006 edited
     # 17

    Ah, now I see our communication gap, which is that we're assuming a context you don't have. Let me describe with my example---

    goal: Find New Teacher

    • I'm Outta Here (got into a fight with his old teacher and sailed off to look for another)
    • Caught in a Storm (in the midst of sailing, ran into a huge storm)
    • Kayakwrecked (his kayak is flipped and tossed by the waves, he ends up lost at sea)
    • Try Again (after being rescued by pirates, and working on some other arcs, he leaves the pirates to keep searching)

    So, this is being triangulated by several other things.

    First thing: I have four Path slots; this is assigned to my Water path, which tells me, approximately, "Positive experiences on this path are linked to dealing with other water Tribe characters, or behaving receptively/adaptively; negative experiences are associated with freezing up, isolationism, stubbornness." It also tells me, "Air Path scenes segue into scenes for this path, and they lead into Earth Path scenes."

    This gives me two other points of reference - what's going on in my Air Path (Make A Friend) and my Earth Path (Become A Pirate). That tells me what to frame out of and toward.

    Finally, I have the starting-point and stated ending-point for my Path, which tell me my initial state and my character's initial intent.

    So we don't have just one lodestar here; there's a whole constellation of information telling me where to go. Because I've got all this data here, I don't have an enormous amount of wiggle room per scene, but each scene immediately colours the next scene; on the whole the system is extremely limber and responsive.

    (Now, regarding what I said earlier re: constraint vs. weight; I think that Keys are weighty but not constrainty; I don't feel like they guide my play effectively because they don't really contain data.)

    So that's where it wins over Keys for me; I don't ever put something down on my sheet and later say, "This isn't cool;" because of the way that the system tracks exactly what I'm up to and constrains me based exactly on that, it's impossible for something on my sheet that's currently relevant to be uncool.

    edit jon why do you use html

    I'll collate my path scenes together in a moment so you can see the way that they influence one another.

    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006 edited
     # 18

    Here they are. Markdown has the dumbest ordered-list syntax ever.

    1. Water Path - Find a New Teacher: I'm Outta Here
    2. (W) Caught in a Storm
    3. (W) Kayakwrecked
    4. Earth Path - Become a Pirate: Bosun Overboard!
    5. pathless fire scene Fake-Rescue Bosun with Ice Katana
    6. Air Path - Make a Friend: Scrubbing with Kai
    7. (W) Try Again (to escape by boat)
    8. (E) Don't Waste Grog (I forget what this was about)
    9. Fire Path - Take Charge of Life: I'm the Lookout Now
  4.  # 19
    Tony,

    First off: yes, I agree that constraint is a great tool. I think that to suggest otherwise would be silly.

    That said, constraint isn't binary. You can have more or less of it, and just how much you want is going to depend upon your goals. For some purposes, the level of constraint imposed by Keys is perfect. In others it's too great (where I change my mind at the last instant about how I really want things to turn out), and in others it's too little (I'm imagining some situation in which having three options isn't focused enough).

    On top of that, constraint doesn't have to be mechanical. One of the reasons the game in question worked so well (or so I posit), is that Jonathan, Shreyas, and I are all terribly Avatar fanboys. And we'd spent a fair number of hours on the drive down to Gen Con talking about the show and what it meant to each of us. We didn't need the mechanics to provide constraint, we had shared color and setting instead. For our group, for that game, for the specific goals in play that we had that shared understanding of Avatar provided precisely the right amount of constraint for us. Mechanical constraint would have been more constraint than we needed for our purpose, and thus would have reduced our flexibility to no advantage.

    Thomas
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2006
     # 20
    Posted By: TonyLBBut there does appear to be at leastsomecontention here that the freeform version has abilities that the mechanical version can't match, and I'd like to chat about those if people feel like it.


    This is entirely my contention and I think we're getting away from it. I don't think the other system components (the element coloring and the like) are really important to understanding how it works. They're all freeform constraint mechanics of different types and I assume Tony is down with that stuff. If not, that's an entirely new conversation. I think the mechanical weight thing is a misdirection too.

    See if this helps:

    Keys are predictions about where the character is going. You change them when they no longer fit the direction you have in mind for the character. Are you close to resolving/changing a Key? The Key doesn't tell you that. It doesn't show you the progression from Just Gained Key to Buying Off Key. You just know you're somewhere along the path of Having Key. This is a pretty "grainy" map of character development, if that terminology works for you. And it's set up, I suspect, to reward the kind of "Making Big Life-Altering Decisions!" play that I know Clinton loves with every fiber in his being. You give up the Key of the Pacifist and take the Key of Bloodlust, with no preparation necessary in between, so you can be rewarded for stabbing people in the face. And that rocks. But it's less cool at showing more gradual and exploratory developmental processes.

    A chain of the kind we're talking about is a record of where the character has been. The most recent stage is where the character is right now, in a way that's much more specific than a Key. It tells you where the character is, on a specific issue, as of the end of the last scene, which tells you what the next scene on that issue will be about. It also shows you, much more explicitly, the developmental process that got you from A to B. If it helps, think of the Goal as Key 1 and then ultimate result as Key 2, and the chained steps in between show the process of moving between them, one scene at a time. And chains can also be used to measure development in lots of things besides character goals and motivations, like advancing in your abilities or changing your alliegance or building a fortress or traveling somewhere or etc.

    Put super-simply, the mechanic is just:

    1. After each scene, write down the key thing(s) that happened.
    2. Use these, mechanically, as you would a trait or a resource.
    3. Add each significant event to a grouping (a chain) that shows your progress towards one or more goals (character, story, whatever).
    4. Give the completion of chains some mechanical weight.
    • CommentAuthorTonyLB
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 21
    Jonathon: I get the importance of the chaining. Or, at least, I think I do.

    But it sounds to me like you're not comparing apples and apples here. You're talking about (on your side) a chain of freeform keys. But then you're talking about (on my side) an unstructured mish-mash of mechanical keys.

    Do you think the same issues arise in a comparison between a chain of freeform keys and a chain of mechanically supported keys?

    'cuz I certainly like the chaining. I just like the key mechanics too, and I'm wondering whether there's a reason I need to decide between either cake or ice cream, instead of just having my cake with ice cream on top.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 22
    I don't think these ideas are mutually exclusive, Tony. This is not "better" than Keys. It just does a bunch of different things that you may or may not want to have happen in your game. So, yeah, pile the ice cream on top.
    • CommentAuthorTonyLB
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006 edited
     # 23
    Cool. But now you've gotten me all hungry, and I do not have either cake or ice cream in my actual, physical presence.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 24

    So, this is material for another thread, really, but I realised why Keys bug me so much - you're rewarding yourself for doing something. Why on earth are you doing that? It's crazy. I see reward mechanics as communication tools, and I really don't need such tools to talk to myself.

    • CommentAuthorTonyLB
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 25
    Oh, I totally need such tools to talk to myself.

    If I sweep the dining room I get a chocolate covered pretzel. How are Keys any different?
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 26

    Are things you intend to do in game stuff you need to bribe yourself to do?

    Sure, like, I don't like sweeping either. But if I've decided already that I'm playing Character A, who has this problem with his kung fu master for Reasons X Y and Z, and I find that dynamic and those reasons appealing, then isn't the chocolate pretzel built in?

    • CommentAuthorTonyLB
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 27
    I'll look harder for opportunities if a pretzel is attached to them. That's just how I am. Plus, I'm forgetful. So it's also kind of halfway a "to do" list. "Oh yeah! I thought it would be a good idea to secretly run out and disobey my master ... and here's a great chance!"
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 28
    I have sympathies for both sides here. I don't think I need to be rewarded for acting in-character, but I do like having guidelines that help me express who my character is. Which may be why chains are like Keys, but without the reward.
    •  
      CommentAuthormisuba
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 29

    Keys are never a reward just from yourself, and they are never a reward just from someone else in the play group. Everyone always has the nuclear option, at least, of walking away from play if you use that boring, or offensive, or broken key. They are always a reward from the whole group.

    But um, yeah, back to the topic. I guess I am not totally clear on how this chains thing is expressing something more generally useful than "have a goal, and drive toward it with your actions."

    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 30

    I think we have an assumption gap here, too. I'm assuming, chains are the only systemic thing. It's impossible to have a reward mechanic that I care about because there isn't any other system crap to hang it from.

    As soon as you start piling other stuff onto the system, I feel like you're violating some serious elegance constraints.

    • CommentAuthorneelk
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 31
    You know, reward mechanics are rewards only because of the social reinforcement of the other players. Suppose you're in tenth grade and you have this 27th level anti-paladin and he has 273 hit points, a -9 AC, and an unholy avenger that drains 1d4 Wisdom points from anyone you hit with it, and you just earned 45,000 XP for soloing Bahamut. Those numbers are a reward only because the other members of your gaming group are jazzed and energized by it. But if you tried to tell your mom about it, she would say "That's nice, dear", and those 45,000 XP are no reward at all.

    So a reward mechanic doesn't need numbers -- what you really need is a way to establish standards of goodness, and a signal for the other players to communicate (dis)approval to each other. For an example I fully understand, in Court of the Empress, there's no numbers at all. Instead, the two reward cycles work like this: the courtier players are rewarded for learning how to please the Empress player, by getting to play more. And the Empress player gets to choose which players are most pleasing to her, making her social environment more pleasant.

    To me, SJT's key chains seem like they ought to work really really well, because story-structure is an inherently pleasurable thing (it's one of the reasons why improv is possible at all). One thing that I want to ask you guys is whether only you can frame plot-arc scenes for your character, or whether a scene that someone else framed can advance your own arc. I'm guessing(?) it's the latter, because that would let you do cool things where in the same scene Buffy falls in love with the Boy, and the Boy acknowledges his demonic birthright, and all that braided plot stuff.

    I should really talk to Selene about this to find out what you were doing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006 edited
     # 32

    One thing that I want to ask you guys is whether only you can frame plot-arc scenes for your character, or whether a scene that someone else framed can advance your own arc.

    I dunno. It might not have come up? We had two characters that were spatially separate.

    I think that if we had played for longer, and based on the structure of the show (remembering that we sat down with this explicit intent: "Make and play a game such that a session of play looks exactly like an Avatar episode"), you have to advance your own arc if you are in someone else's scene - anytime you appear, you're somewhere in the arc cycle and your significant presence in the scene must be relevant to your position.

    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 33

    Posted By: misubaI guess I am not totally clear on how this chains thing is expressing something more generally useful than "have a goal, and drive toward it with your actions."



    This lets you have multiple goals (major, minor, etc.) that are being developed at different rates all at the same time, and yet are easily kept track of. And it supports instances where driving towards your goals leads somewhere completely different (unlike, say, Motivations in Exalted 2, which is an attempt to do exactly what you describe).

    Neel: Yes. We didn't actually have any multi-PC scenes, but, in such cases, each character would certainly be working on there own chains, getting different things out of the same events. This, I think, could serve to drive inter-character tension and conflict.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJosh Roby
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 34
    Jonathan, this is what I don't get: what you've describes sounds, to me, to be "Figure out what you want to do. Write that down. Take steps to doing that thing." Now, sans the "write that down" step, that seems to me to be just roleplay. Is this simply documenting your goals in a linear format? Do you find that the act of writing the goal down focuses play more than unspoken decisions? What does the writing down part get you? Or what other effect am I missing?
    •  
      CommentAuthorBrandon A
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 35
    Hi All. This is Brandon - as mentioned in John's post (way up there) and I would like to toss out some thoughts. Just a quick bit of background. I have played my TSOY character for 8 sessions now, with the goal of "Earn so much XP, the other players wonder why their characters aren't as cool as yours." I love XP. I love advances. I love telling my story. Narration is great and Story creation is fun, but so far, nothing has beaten the feeling of the climactic scene where I got to hit each and everyone of my keys and ultimately get to call out ... " and that earns me 22 XP." (out of a maximum 25.) And I all I had to do to earn that 22 XP was to take actions that lead to having my girlfriend be killed by my best friend, while renouncing my house (because I refused to kill my best friend. Long story.) Yeah, that's all.

    I love the idea of the Key Chain and there is a lot of potential here. That being said, I do not see how your example fits the Key Chain steps you laid out.

    >1. Declare and Record a Goal - GOAL: Find New Teacher
    Sounds awesome.

    >2. Frame a Scene Where You Make Progress Towards that Goal
    >3. Record the Result

    >SCENE 1: I'm Outta Here
    Great. Begin the journey.

    >SCENE 2: Caught in a Storm (Water Path)
    >SCENE 3: Kayakwrecked (Water Path)

    Here is where you lose me. I see how cool the storm is and that it is a part of your journey. However it doesn't really have anything to with your explicitly stated Goal of finding a new teacher. To my mind, the next scene relevant to your explicitly stated goal would be for him to meet the Pirate Captain (or whoever) and had a scene where he tries to decide if the pirate is the right person to become your new teacher,

    My final point for now, is that your Element Matrix will create an awesome journey, but it does not really address the topic of achieving goals, which is what the TSOY Keys do. When I choose a TSOY Key, I am stating that my goal is to fulfill the 5 XP condition at some point. Sometimes that 5 XP condition is: Key of the Revolutionary (Strike a Major Blow against an oppressive organization) and sometimes it is: Key of Thrilling Heroics (Doing something thrillingly heroic, that could get you killed, while carrying the princess.)
  5.  # 36
    Edited: Posted too early -- everything I said has been covered.

    P.S. Where's the delete function?
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 37
    Joshua: Yeah, basically. Writing down does several things. One, you can have mechanics built on that, so your system is powered by what you said is "just roleplay," which I think is pretty hot. Two, it really provides structure and pacing to play like you would not believe. When you can see what has happened and for what reason, it really helps you figure out what the next step should be. It makes the structure and purpose of play much more explicit. It's sorta like writing an Actual Play report as you go, with that sense of self-reflection.

    Brandon: Yeah, I was actually just thinking the same thing. Shreyas was not really hitting his Chain theme as much as hitting his element in the early play we were doing. That's the problem with talking about this technique when we're only beginning to develop it, I fear. The suggestions you have about directly addressing his goals are a lot more on the ball, less filler.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 38

    Brandon, you're quite right. It felt natural in play, so I was happy with it.

    I'm trying to remember now and I can't, whether it felt like we were putting those there implicitly as consequence-obstacles, suggesting, "This is what you get when you try to strike out on your own" and, "This is getting in the way of your finding a new teacher." That seems plausible, but it's too late to remember for sure.

    I think you're right in your suggestion that explicitly discussing Path-relevance of every scene would be better.

    •  
      CommentAuthorJosh Roby
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2006
     # 39
    Posted By: JonathanWalton

    Joshua:Yeah, basically. Writing down does several things. ... it really provides structure and pacing to play like you would not believe.



    Oh, I'll believe. FLFS gets tons of mileage out of the simple concept of talking about the game first.

  6.  # 40
    Huh. Weird.

    Some of the revisions I've made to Galactic are similar to what you're thinking, Jonathan. It's sorta like the Story Arc from PTA plus Keys from TSOY. In this case, though, the goals are vague but predetermined.
  7.  # 41
    Oh, I'll believe. FLFS gets tons of mileage out of the simple concept of talking about the game first.


    And dude, when am I going to see this game? I'm getting impatient. Gimme gimme.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2006
     # 42
    Matt: PTA's pacing mechanics were a major inspiration too. I should have mentioned that.

    We may try to run an example of this kind of play in IRC soon, to better illustrate things. Maybe some Exalted, to just take a really crunchy game and strip it totally down to the bones.
    • CommentAuthorneelk
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2006
     # 43
    Posted By: JudaicDiablo
    Here is where you lose me. I see how cool the storm is and that it is a part of your journey. However it doesn't really have anything to with your explicitly stated Goal of finding a new teacher. To my mind, the next scene relevant to your explicitly stated goal would be for him to meet the Pirate Captain (or whoever) and had a scene where he tries to decide if the pirate is the right person to become your new teacher.


    I'd be a little worried about being too "on the nose" if we limit ourselves to only listing scenes that are directly, obviously and immediately relevant to the Goal.

    When the PC decides whether the pirate captain is a good teacher or not, you must supply the audience (yourself and the other players) some reasons why he goes one way or the other. If we don't have any background context for this decision, we have to make it up on the spot, and that means doing some telling rather than showing. For example: "My PC considers the captain's offer, but decides that not to accept, because I'm pissed off at my old master for treating me like dirt, and pirates have to treat their victims like dirt in order to be pirates."

    Now, suppose we have a storm and shipwreck, and the pirates pick up the PC. Next, there's another storm, and the pirates come through it unscathed because of the captain's seamanship -- establishing that he knows stuff the PC doesn't, and is a potential mentor. Next, there's a scene of the pirates robbing another ship -- establishing how they have to treat their victims. Now, when the captain makes his offer, the player doesn't have to explicitly say why his PC goes one way or the other, since the other players can deduce his reasons from the action. Pirates going through storms and robbing people doesn't look like it has anything to do with finding a new teacher, until the player MAKES it part of that.

    What really jazzes me about the scene chain idea is that you can do these scenes and basically make a promise to the other players, "Trust me, guys, this will become relevant." And since the other players know what you're trying to do, they can help you by holding you to it.
  8.  # 44
    I sympathize with what Joshua is saying in that I've always even thought that even TSOY's rules were a little close to themselves. For instance, Thomas' example is invalid because, in fact, TSOY does reward you for going against your key by giving you 10 EXP, and dissolving the key. Note that then buying a new key costs 10 EXP. So really this is the same thing as saying that one can get rewarded, or use the decision to mechanically denote a change in the character. In fact, with a tiny rules drift, you can allow a player to buy the same key twice in a row, and then lower the key cost to, say 8, and then you have an incentive to actually go against your key, to gain 2 EXP.

    Maybe a better example is what's happening with Aspects in the version of FATE in SOTC, where you get rewarded for accepting failures based on your Aspects, or even for taking penalties in play related to them. See also Fred's game Pace.

    The problem with these all is that the mechanical part of the reward is only meaningful in that you can use the reward for something else. That is, if in TSOY, you couldn't spend the EXP on abilities, then it would be much simpler to have the rule be, "When you go against a Key, erase that key, and take another based on what you did." At which point, as Joshua points out, you're just enumerating your path as you do it, which seems like extra work for no other effect than you would have gotten if you'd "just played."

    Now I take your point that you find it useful to write it down. And maybe doing so with a particular structure will make that more likely to produce play. But then what it seems like you've got is less of a reward system or such, and just at tool for sketching out the story. Which is fine, it just doesn't seem to do much of anything in the way of promoting certain sorts of play or anything.

    I think this perception, however, is because we're looking at what you've got without seeing the rest of the mechanics associated with this. Rewards come in two parts, and actually promote two things. The first thing promoted is what the reward is given for. OK, you have a reward for sketching out scenes, which is good for story structure, and what you want. What's the form of the reward? And what does it promote due to it's nature.

    With TSOY, the reward is for going with, or against your key. The reward is more keys (or other abilities). See how that's a bit too tight together? In D&D, the rewards are for killing things and taking the stuff. The rewards themselves are more power, which promotes killing more powerful things, because now you can. So you get the powerful D&D upward spiral (for good or ill).

    I'm probably just urging you to disclose more. But I think you're only showing us half a picture, and that's hard to get excited about.

    Mike
    •  
      CommentAuthorJosh Roby
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2006 edited
     # 45
    Posted By: Matt Wilson
    And dude, when am I going to see this game? I'm getting impatient. Gimme gimme.


    November 16th release, with pre-orders and preview sneak-peak pdf in October. Which is all so freaking soon it's starting to wig me out.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2006
     # 46
    Mike, I hope the upcoming example of play helps some, because I don't think this is based on a traditional reward mechanic. I think it's a way of structuring play that just makes the play more consistent in certain ways and allows for a certain style of character development, which are their own rewards.

    Now I take your point that you find it useful to write it down. And maybe doing so with a particular structure will make that more likely to produce play. But then what it seems like you've got is less of a reward system or such, and just at tool for sketching out the story. Which is fine, it just doesn't seem to do much of anything in the way of promoting certain sorts of play or anything.


    Um, but doesn't the whole categorization of scenes promote future scenes that are based on previous scenes as well as the categories themselves? That's like the core of the mechanic.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBrandon A
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2006 edited
     # 47
    Posted By: neelk

    I'd be a little worried about being too "on the nose" if we limit ourselves to only listing scenes that are directly, obviously and immediately relevant to the Goal.

    To Neelk: I do not disagree with you on this. In his specific example, the storm and kayakwreck are superfluous to his goal. I like your counter example though and those scene would contribute to his goal If we were to build a TSOY Key around it, it could look something like this (off the top of my head):

    Key of the Searching Student
    You are in search of a new master. You do not know who this person is or what he will teach you, but you will find him. When you take this key you may specify a person as your potential master for the purposes of this key. You may only have one potential master at a time.
    1 XP: Have a Scene with your potential master (max 3 per session)
    2 XP: Have a Scene where your potential master's actions sway your decision
    5 XP: Risk great harm to win your potential master's approval
    Buyoff: Accept a New Master or abandon your quest for a New Master.

    In this case, I would record any scene where you choose a new potential master or earn the 2xp/5xp condition. Then things like sailing a storm and raiding a village matter.

    Posted By: JonathanWalton

    Um, but doesn't the whole categorization of scenes promote future scenes that are based on previous scenes as well as the categories themselves? That's like the core of the mechanic.

    To Jonathan: Not necessarily. The entire basis of story creation is about building on what has previously happened. Categorizing scenes is, IMO, an unnecessary step. I can see it being useful in terms looking back over what you have done and saying, "aha - I want to build on that" but it is ultimately an aspect of storytelling that happens naturally. Players who take better notes often get to spring something fun from the games "history" but any could do that, if they remembered it.

    That being said, I will now negate that statement with this. Take a look at Art, Grace, and Guts (http://artgraceguts.pbwiki.com/ - a Vincent Baker game in the works) and look at the "We owe" system. This seems like the type of codified example of what you are describing. My opinions about the system at this point are not firm, but if you haven't seen it, you should.

    •  
      CommentAuthorAlbert A
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2006
     # 48
    Mike,

    Values may have changed between TSoY-1st and TSoY-Fudge, but the default numbers in TSoY-Fudge are 5xp per advance, 10xp when you buy off a key. So buying off a key not only gives you an opportunity to change your character's direction 'for free', but it also gives him a nudge in that direction with an extra advance.

    In my favorite TSoY session [minus the last ten minutes], I was able to use this to catapault my character clear into another position. He started the session as the scrappy, sneaky sidekick type and ended it with a Master-level Tactics score and in command of a large squad of ratkin special forces. I went through 10 advances in that single session, fueled by rampant Key buyoff.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAlbert A
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2006
     # 49
    Oh, and I'd like to add that it was exactly that session and the way I burned through Keys to architect a massive revolution in the character that has me excited about this Key Chain idea. Can't wait to see it in context, Jonathan!
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2006
     # 50
    ...any could do that, if they remembered it.


    YES. That maybe why this seems so unnecessary to you and Mike, but I find it, as a player, difficult to remember stuff like this, especially if I have a handful of different goals that all interact in complex ways. It seems infinitely easier and better, in my opinion, to write the important stuff down.

    Vincent (or somebody else) mentioned AG&G when I was talking before about low-impact stuff. I have yet to check it out because I am stupid. Will fix this tonight.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeSep 13th 2006
     # 51
    Mike: If you want to look at what a full-on game system based on this concept might look like, my hack of Exalted is beginning to come together here and here.