I'm selling my services as game master to California, Bay Area-ites.

The game? Big Eyes, Small Mouth 3rd Ed drifted towards that chocolatey and peanut-buttery blend of Narrativism and Gamism. (Mmmn... fortune in the middle... choose your own Traits... say yes or roll dice... they really are two great tastes that taste great together.)

I am pleased to present High Tech, Low Brains: A Space Opera, wherein we have godlike technology between the Agents of Humanity, Suil Psychics, Engineers of Iinar, Warriors of Draconis and the Rebels. But we got nothin' that makes us less STUPID.

Carve out your niche in (what's left of) the Orion Arm of the Galaxy. Don't destroy the entire spiral arm... we kinda like the entire spiral arm... we live here...

At the beginning of the game, you'll be presented with a choice of five societies. Pick any three: One will be the society all of you identify with the most. One will be your allies. The last will be your enemy.

The price is $50.00 per month of weekly play, as of the 23rd of Febuary, the price is $10.00 per week payable in advance, which including includes snacks and drinks: a five session pass comes with a spiffy membership card with your characters mug on it in full color. We meet weekly on Friday, 4:00 to 6:00, at at Eudemonia on 2154 University (and Shattuck) in Berkeley, California. E-mail e_belser@yahoo.com or call (510) 847-6971 for info.

Edited to add: I've updated my spiel! Now I offer weekend one shots and adults only games at more reasonable times as well.

The Berkeley Roleplaying Club Presents
All Ages Weekend One-Shots
(at half the price)!
Try them, you might like them!

Say you've got a hankering for some sarcastic space opera? Then BESM: High Tech, Low Brains, which meets Friday, is just the thing.

Or for some funny fantasy, try the Wednesday BESM: Trismegustos High School, CA. The teachers will expel anyone brewing love potions.

For a more serious bent, you could try out our adults-only Tuesday game, New World of Darkness: Baptizing the Imagination, in which a card game causes mysterious disappearances.

And for those who want just want a kidney punch to their sense of morals, we present the iconoclastic adults only Thursday games of Dogs in the Vineyard: On a Mission from the King of Life, where you are the ONLY secular and religious authorities in Utah frontier towns within a days ride.

Try one at half price! I'll bring the snacks!

$5.00 for a one-shot game, snacks and drinks. Lunch $2.50 extra.

$10.00 in advance for a place at any weekly game, 4:00 to 6:30 for all-ages games, and 6:30 to 9:30 for adults only games.

All games come with snacks and drinks, dinner $2.50 extra

$40.00 in advance for five games and an illustrated club card

Meets at Eudemonia on 2154 University (and Shattuck)

Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back!

E-mail e_belser@yahoo.com or call (510) 847-6971 for info on our games.

Edited for my best spiel yet.

The Berkeley Roleplaying Club Presents
Roleplaying Lessons for Beginners to Vets
At Games of Berkeley, 2151 Shattuck @ Center
And At Eudemonia, 2154 University @ Shattuck

Learn storytelling and roleplaying techniques through gaming and discussion.
All entry fees $15 per session, five sessions @ $70. Lunch or dinner included.

All Ages:

Big Eyes Small Mouth: High Tech, Low Brains: A Space Opera
At G. of B. on Saturday 3:30 pm - 6:00 pm.
At Eudo on Friday, 3:30 pm - 6:00 pm.
Five powerful galactic empires with godlike tech (and what seems like ten brain-cells between them) threaten to destroy the Orion Arm!

Big Eyes, Small Mouth: Trismegustos Academy of Magic
At G. of B. on Sunday 3:30 pm - 6:00 pm
At Eudo on Sunday 12:00 pm - 3:00 pm
Trismegustos Academy is the best place in Ashton, California to learn magic, but beware - the teachers will expel anyone trying to brew love potions.

Big Eyes, Small Mouth: Superdimensional Surveyor "Crossover Genre"
At G. of B. on Friday 6:30 pm - 9:00 pm
At Eudo on Saturday 12:00 pm - 3:00 pm
Does strength rule this world? Love? Pet monsters? Magic? Can you learn the rules of the next stop of the Superdimensional Surveyor "Crossover Genre" in time to save it?

Adults Only:

Dogs In The Vineyard: On A Mission from the King Of Life
At G. of B. on Wednesday 6:30 pm - 9:00 pm
Roleplaying God's Watchdogs in a West that never quite was.

Mage the Awakening: Baptizing the Imagination
At Eudo on Thursday 6:30 pm - 9:00 pm
A tournament trading card game called The Fallen City is causing mysterious disappearances and Awakenings. How can you use this?

That is awesome because I only charge $50.00 a game to have me as a player in your group.

What is really wierd, is that everyone I know charges $50.00 to be a player in their group, so we all call it even and split the snacks.

/snark

Elliot, does this really work?

Is there a money-back guarantee if your story gaming turns out not to be "quality" story gaming?

Elliot, I'm bummed that I'm not in the Bay Area. But I'd love it if you'd come out here to Western Mass, though. I think you'll find that our rates are very reasonable.

...

You know, this is the kind of response one gets when charging exorbitantly in a buyer's market. I mean, I'm not even sure I could count the number of excellent GMs I know. But off the top of my head:

Nathan Paoletta, Judd Karlman, Vincent Baker, Luke Crane, Matt Snyder, Meguey Baker...

Wait, I'm not going to list every friend I've got.

In case I've been unclear: I dislike intensely the commoditization of creativity. To me, this is the equivalent of coming here and offering to be someone's substitute in a game. I appreciate that, at 12.50 a game, you're not exactly making a profit when you're providing snacks, but that just means you're undercharging for your services; any group can bring chips over.

So, since this clearly isn't a profit making venture, could I suggest that you just have some friends over to play?

Actually, at $50 per game ( assuming 4 players x 12.50/week), there is a smallish profit being made after the cost of snacks.

OTOH, I'm not sure this is really any different than hosting a college kegger and charging $5 per cup for all you can drink 'til it runs out.

Hey, guys, each response post to mine is going to cost you $0.50. I'm charging for all my social interactions from here out.

How does that work out for tax purposes? Can I get a receipt?

The only thing I see "wrong" with it is that it runs against the tradition of gaming culture. Musicians charge, actors charge, caterers charge, painters charge. Writers write and try to get paid.

Unlikely? Sure.

Immoral or soulless? I dunno. Definitely not something I'd try to take up as a full-on income maker.

OTOH, a whole lot of folks around these parts write games and charge for that. Is it really that far-fetched to posit running a game and charging at some level ? I mean, casinos get a rake when they run games...

I think this is a perfectly valid response to the fact that trad-gaming GM work is so hard.

I also think it works better in the Bay Area, for whatever reason. (Becky Thomas' Roleplay Workshop RPG program for kids is based in Oakland, and Endgame does a day-camp program now and again... maybe they just aren't growin' enough good GMs for the kids 'round the Bay way.)

Uh, guys, what's all the snarkiness about? Is there something wrong with somebody trying to make a buck on his talents for entertaining others? If somebody's actually buying? What the fuck?

There's another issue of whether soliciting this sort of thing around here is okay or is abuse of the resource, but I'll let Andy make that call.

Judd,

Sure... but if all of that is true, if you're really playing a game where the GM has to supply the awesome and the fun and the GM does supply the awesome and the fun... then doesn't him getting paid make a kind of sense? I mean, much as you and I might want the game of which you speak, lets be real honest -- a lot of players really do play, and want, the magical GM game. And since it's magic, and you'd pay a birthday clown who pulled a coin out of your child's nose, why not?

I mean, I laugh out loud at the idea, then snicker all night long in my smug sense of self-superiority, but that's because I'm a jerk and not because there is anything fundamentally wrong with the idea.

Now using SG for advertising it is maybe a bit spammy, but hell, some of us pimp our games that we've designed here enough that its not like there isn't a precedent for that too.

Snark-sayers,

I'm beating on the idea, not at Elliott. Elliott, if you took anything I wrote as a personal attack, I'm sorry. That wasn't meant.

If it works for you and you make cash, awesome.

But the idea makes me gitchy. I don't dig it and I'm saying so.

That's okay, right? I don't have to love every idea that everyone has, right?

Judd,

Hey, no worries. I didn't feel attacked.

Being able to charge for gaming really must be a bay area thing. I did not know that. o_o; Bizzare.

Hell, if I could make a living as a GM I'd be all for it.

I don't imagine that I can, but that's only because "a living" for me is a lot of money.

Actually, $50 gets you one game every week for a month... $12.50 for a game, and snacks.

Posted By: misubaElliott, I am excited that you're doing this and being reasonably (which is to say not spammily, to my eye) public about it.

(Bows) I do my arrogant humble best.

As a point of comparison, I've seen other, primarily minis-friendly, gamers suggest similar costs per week as membership in a gaming club. If E.B. has put a target on his head for suggesting charging for services, a quick presentation change and suddenly he's being an altruistic sort paying for the costs of organizing an on-going game at his home.

As a second point of comparison, I used to go to a bi-weekly poker game with a $20 buy-in and an average $10 re-buy of chips, held at a local bar. You paid for you own bevvies and snacks, too. That's already a bit more than EB was talking about ( although, a winnig night brought money back to you).

I still think you're Quixotic, though, EB...

After I can the snark, the thought that comes up is that I can reasonably demand a theater refund my ticket if I was so unhappy with either the performance or the rudeness of others in the audience that I left in the middle of it.

I suppose my question for Elliot is this: if one of the other players is a complete asshat, can I demand a refund?

This does sound bizarre. I'm just a 90 minute drive east of Berkeley -- in Sacramento -- and this idea doesn't strike me as natural. Maybe it's very localized the just the Bay. I know I wouldn't do it, for if nothing else, the act of payment would shift a lot more on my shoulders than I'd normally feel comfortable with, just like a con game. Now, I love running con games, but I wouldn't want to do that every week.

Yeah, my second GM after my father was a fellow than ran a game as part of an after school program at the local middle school for which we paid a fee. Parents got a kid free afternoon, kids got to game, guy presumably got paid. Win-win-win. This was in Jersey for the record.

I think when its kids though its a different mindset. Parent's are conditioned to pay an activity that their kids like and gets them out of the house for a time. You are paying them to deal with kids more than for the activity.

I do have to ask though, am I reading your ad correctly that you only meet for two hours a session from 4-6? I can't believe anyone would pay for only two hour sessions of gaming.

$12.50 for four hours(?) of fun, especially in the Bay area, is sort of a deal. how much are cigerettes and a soy burger in San Fran? for $10 you used to be able to see Fugazi, and they didn't let me play their instruments(poorly, sort of).

Am I disturbed because I hate what Elliot's doing, or that I didn't think to do it first?

Posted By: Graham Walmsley
I SUMMON ANDY KITKOWSKI!

ANDY KITKOWSKI, JUDGE THIS THREAD!

..which is kind of hilarious, because I saw the thread title last night, and didn't read the thread (thinking it was just a provocative title to attract players for a regular game). I didn't read it until about 30 minutes ago (I'm like "40+ posts? What's up with tha.... ohhhhh...").

So yeah, where's the mauve? Ah, there it is: THREAD IS KOSHER. JUDGMENT HAS PASSED.

I mean, it's sure *weird* and all to me, but it's in the right area for pimping stuff and services, etc.

But yeah, I recall people talking about charging for games a couple years back on RPGNet. You could imagine the discussion that ensued. In the end, I think the entirety of the thread can be explained by one word: CALIFORNIA (though I would almost expect this more in LA than the Bay Area; I can see someone making a living as Dungeon Master to the Stars and other Hollywood Types).

Uh... good luck? I think I speak for all of us when I say, "I'm really interested in seeing how this turns out, so let us know!"

Other random thoughts:
* Tony: Being the Bay Area, I'd wager $50 per player. Costs of living and all that.

* If you break down the relationships at my gamng tables into a pure money-gravy system, it would look something like this: The GM gets paid $10 "Shadow Dollars" a week in total from the group of four players. In return, the GM pays the players $2.50 in Shadow Dollars back, to have the players show up for the game. Also, the host charges a "seating fee" of $5.00 per week to the group, which is often repaid once a month or whatever when someone eventually brings in soda, snacks, ice cream, etc. In the end, no money is exchanged because everything works out. For the Player-centric minded, then nix the word GM: Say each of the 5 players pays $5 a week to play in their weekly game, and in return they receive $5 for providing the others ($1 per person) with a good time; again, no money is actually exchanged. Weird, but maybe you can break it down like that.

* In Japan, when I wanted some part time cash, I would set up an English conversation group and charge $30-50 a week (or 'session') to a group of anywhere between 6 to 10 people. I'd certainly have lesson plans, activities, and real teaching mechanisms, but in the end it was a lot of fun and a nice way to score some cash. I *would* have done it for free with friends, but in the end I didn't have to because there were nice people willing to pay. I guess that's what the market would bear. So in that regards, if there's folks who would pay for it, and you're giving that service for pay, then that's nothing more than a round red peg in a form-fitting round hole.

Still, though, *weird*. :-)

-Andy

Posted By: Ryan MacklinAfter I can the snark, the thought that comes up is that I can reasonably demand a theater refund my ticket if I was so unhappy with either the performanceorthe rudeness of others in the audience that I left in the middle of it.

I suppose my question for Elliot is this: if one of the other players is a complete asshat, can I demand a refund?

This does sound bizarre. I'm just a 90 minute drive east of Berkeley -- in Sacramento -- and this idea doesn't strike me as natural. Maybe it's very localized the just the Bay. I know I wouldn't do it, for if nothing else, the act of payment would shift a lot more on my shoulders than I'd normally feel comfortable with, just like a con game. Now, I love running con games, but I wouldn't want to do that every week.

If one of the players is a complete asshat, that player would receive one warning before not being invited back to the next game.

In this case, if it caused other players to not want to come back, the players who didn't want to come back would receive refunds.

However, the player who was an asshat would not.

This would clearly be set down in the rules discussed in the first session.

I enjoy doing many things which are hard.

If something is hard it doesn't mean people don't do it, or don't do it for enjoyment. The two are not mutually exclusive.

It depends for who.

Some people freeze when you want them to narrate or carry the story, which makes playing Indie games with them hard. For those people, the GM's job IS that much harder.

Posted By: Thunder_GodIt depends for who.

Some people freeze when you want them to narrate or carry the story, which makes playing Indie games with them hard. For those people, the GM's job IS that much harder.

Quoted. For. [CENSORED BY CONFEDERATION OF TERRA SECURITY]. TRUTH.

Posted By: Jason Morningstar

(Numbered for my convenience)

(1) This is super interesting to me.

(2) I really hope Elliot will come back in three months and give us an update on how this is working out.

(3) When you commodotize the play experience, participants will approach it with the same (unreasonable) expectations they might bring to, say, any service industry interaction.

(4) The people who will be attracted to this sort of arrangement are the sort of people who can't maintain regular game groups for whatever reason. If they are willing to meet weekly, it isn't atimething, so it is probably apersonalitything. A table full of them will be an exciting opportunity.

(5) Since the players are paying for the service, the value equation for missing a session has zero social component - whereas if I need to skip out of game night, I will be letting down friends, so I try not to. As World's Best GM, you'll need to work around casual absenteeism in addition to bad attitudes and odious personal habits.

(6) I'll echo the comments that if you can make this work, more power to you. If people agree that you are providing a service they simply can't get for the price elsewhere, then God Bless America.

1: Thanks kindly.

2: I promise that I will give a monthly bulliten. I have a blog at l_the_fangirl.livejournal.com that I can use for updates too.

3: True. It must rock on toast every time, or they won't come back. Still, I have ideas on how to make that happen, and Story Games and the Forge showed the way. Remind me to thank Vincent "say yes or roll the damn dice" Baker.

4: For a given value of "Exciting." I consider it an educational opportunity, myself. Teach people these hippy games in a fairly trad setting.

5: Why do you think it's pay-per-month? Also, I'll be mean/a shrewd businessman/standing on the shoulders of my old GM, John Frankenhiem/an awesome GM and end on cliffhangers. Mwu ha and ha again.

6: Hail Freedonia, Land of the Brave And Free. Now Go Play!

If George R.R. Martin offered to run a ASOIAF game for me for $12.50 a session, shit, I'd sign up in a heartbeat.

I submit that a lot of us would for someone whose creative storytelling we admire.

So if Elliot's appropriately fulfilling the player's expectations, that's awesome. Do whatever's fun for y'all, at whatever price it's worth it to everyone.

I don't object to somebody else paying or charging for their game, but for my part there is No Way In Hell I would do either. I game exclusively with friends except at club events. Everyone makes a great effort of some sort: the GM, yes, but the players who travel a long distance to be at the game, the people who write game notes, the players who always have lots of background material on their characters, everyone who is always throwing plot lines, the people who bake for everyone, etc. Bringing money into our little ecology would be a disaster:

• As a GM, I can only do this for fun. If I charged, it would become work -- and I already work five days a week.


• As a GM, if I charged, I would feel like I owe something qualitatively and quantitatively different to the players. For example, if we dissolve into 15 minutes of kibitzing but the players are having a good time -- am I meeting my obligation or not? I would stress about that all the time.


• As a player, I would have the lingering impression that the GM cares exactly as much about the game, me, the group, etc. as an actor at the theater or as a store owner: sure, they want us to have a good time, but it's a pretty impersonal relationship and if we don't have a good time, gee, that's too bad.


• Both as player and as GM, I would be concerned that some or all the players might start thinking of the game in terms of its cost: "Shucks, I want to go to the movies with my friends but the gme is in the way. Ah, that's OK -- I'm paid up for the month." Or simply: "Hey, I don't NEED to play nice. I paid for this."


• If Player X can't afford the cost but we really love Player X, do we pitch in or cut her a break to have her on board? What if it's Player Y?

Oof, I agonize enough over GMing upcoming sessions and second guess myself enough post-session as it is. I can't imagine how much more stress it'd be if I charged.

Like Sex.

I feel that unease too, Judson, and I really do think it is the intersection of commerce with a deeply social exercise. If my friends and I were to, say, pay for the services of an improv coach, there's an acknowledgement that we're receiving her wisdom and experience, and that can be easily qualified - but we aren't necessarily friends with her. In fact it works much better if we aren't. But gaming isn't normally heirarchical in that teacher-student way.

I was about to write that gaming is different, that it is a social construct predicated on friendship, but of course that's not true. Plenty of people rock out exclusively at RPGA events with strangers (and pay for the privilege).

Posted By: xenopulseIf George R.R. Martin offered to run a ASOIAF game for me for $12.50 a session, shit, I'd sign up in a heartbeat.

I submit that a lot of us would for someone whose creative storytelling we admire.

So if Elliot's appropriately fulfilling the player's expectations, that's awesome. Do whatever's fun for y'all, at whatever price it's worth it to everyone.

I feel similarly that I don't generally pay sight-unseen. I have considered paying for certain larps (where it is fairly common for there to be a fee since there are location and other costs). I was also tempted by Otherworld Excursions. However, I didn't. I also would consider doing The Roleplay Workshop for my son Milo as he gets older (but again, haven't).

I have paid for conventions, which is essentially paying to play -- particularly at the local conventions where there is little except play that I couldn't otherwise get. I guess I feel that there is a larger name at conventions. I have paid for conventions in the past just to play in games which I didn't think were that great, but generally not multiple times.

I guess I'd consider it if I saw some rave reviews. I'm at a stage in life where I'll pretty easily drop $30 on dinner at a restaurant I"m not sure about -- so $12.50 for a game doesn't seem unreasonable.

Attention player haters:

Don't hate the player-- hate the game.



Game recognize game.

Bay Area represent.


--Big Apple Curly

Somebody else I once knew wanted to charge for his GMing, too. I find the idea laughable. This is on the same caliber as somebody coming over and saying, "Hey, for just $20 I'll come in and watch TV with you! I've brought some chips, and I promise my commentary to be hillarious!" People generally pay for stuff that's a pain in the ass, or otherwise not very fun. People generally don't like paying for things they enjoy doing, or can otherwise do themselves, nomatter how much somebody tells them they can do it better for a fee.

However, I'm also a free market kind of guy. If you can turn a buck out of this, then great. Just be warned that if you break down your fee into hours of labor (including prep work and materials in addition to game time, as well as downtime and unexpected delays), you're getting paid very very low. I don't imagine you could turn this into a full time job unless you charged a much stiffer fee.

Posted By: kkriegg People generally don't like paying for things they enjoy doing, or can otherwise do themselves, nomatter how much somebody tells them they can do it better for a fee.,

Like changing an air filter or adding a couple quarts of oil? ;-)

However, I'm also a free market kind of guy. If you can turn a buck out of this, then great. Just be warned that if you break down your fee into hours of labor (including prep work and materials in addition to game time, as well as downtime and unexpected delays), you're getting paid veryverylow. I don't imagine you could turn this into a full time job unless you charged a much stiffer fee.

Writing and designing games also seems to be very low-paying per-hour...

Yes, I agree. Well, I think we're allowed to snark a bit because, you know, it's weird. But it's getting a bit much.

See, when I did improv, a similar thing happened. People would set themselves up as "improv teachers" or run "improv workshops" and charge for it: even though improv is something many people do for fun.

What happened was the bad ones (most of them) just failed. The few good ones kept going.

So I hope Elliott finds a way to make this work, actually. I don't think he will. But if he does, I'm sure as hell copying his business model.

By the way, Elliott, I like the new pricing structure. If I was ever in the Bay Area, I'd be tempted to give you ten bucks to see what it was like: frankly, to see if you were any good.

Perhaps not from 4pm to 6pm, though: if I gave you ten bucks, I'd want you to keep me entertained for the evening (so to speak). If it was 8pm to 10pm, with a trip to the bar afterwards, that would be better. But, like I say, I'm tempted.

Graham

Posted By: kkrieggHowever, I'm also a free market kind of guy. If you can turn a buck out of this, then great. Just be warned that if you break down your fee into hours of labor (including prep work and materials in addition to game time, as well as downtime and unexpected delays), you're getting paid veryverylow. I don't imagine you could turn this into a full time job unless you charged a much stiffer fee.

Hell, I can't turn it into a full time job at this point and I know it. That being said, at this point i'm trying to get regular paying clients, not get wads of cash.

During the conversation last week, we did moot the idea that my players could bribe me. A quid ($2) for a random re-roll and two ($4) for a favourable result. And two again to cock up someone else's roll. And there would be a bidding system that would go up in increments. That beats the card based and stone/paper/scissors rubbish we've all been inventing over the last few years.

Okay, i've tried being nice and reasonable.

I'm essentially asking for money to organize a game, teach valuable creative and storytelling techniques, and create a cool world and antagonists for the players characters to make awesome from.

You're comparing that to asking for money to trample over narrative authority.

Enough with the [CENSORED BY CONFEDERATION OF TERRA SECURITY] attacks with little to no basis in reality.

Thirded.