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Games and Gaming: What's a better name for the "The Mountain Witch Trick"?

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  1.  
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      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 1
    Basically, what I'm referring to is this (I used it a lot, glaringly obviously so, in my "The Mountain Witch - Tenra Bansho Crossover" this last weekend):

    GM: "There's a mural on the wall here. It disturbs you (points at a player). What is the mural, and why do you find it disturbing?"

    GM: "As you pass the graveyard, a gravestone marker attracts your attention (points at player). Whose is it?"

    GM: "The ghost mouths something to you. What is it saying?"

    That sort of thing. This is something I refer to as "The Mountain Witch trick", since it's used a lot in that game. I use it in a lot of games, particularly when I'm stuck and need a player-nudge for Something Cool to happen soon.

    I used to refer to it as... the word I've forgotten*. Basically the counselling trick where you turn the person's statement back into a question at them, ala ELIZA (the computer program):

    Person: I like bananas.
    Counsellor: Why do you feel that you like bananas?

    But I'm trying to think of a better name. Not necessarily "technical term in the consulting world", but if there is such a word I'd love to hear it.

    Thoughts?

    -Andy

    * Wait, is it "reflection"?
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 2
    I think of it in my head as "fill in the blank." Because you, as the GM, are requiring the players to fill in the blanks in your setting and situation (not "setting" in the sense that "Greyhawk is a setting" but in the sense of the immediate setting of the scene).

    It's a good technique.

    yrs--
    --Ben
    • CommentAuthorJudd
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 3
    That is fantastic, Andy.

    Wow, nice.
  4.  # 4
    Very nice technique... it deserves an awesome name :)

    How about 'The Mountain Witch Trick'? Too obvious?
    How about the Kitkowski question?
    The Andy Enigma? *grin*

    In all seriousness, I think that calling the method 'reflecting' or 'mirroring' (I like the second more) pretty much encapsulates what you are looking for.
    •  
      CommentAuthorGraham
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 5
    Hang on, reflecting means something different in counsellorspeak. It means:

    Me: There's a mural on the wall and I'm looking at it.
    Counsellor: So you're looking at a mural, on the wall.
    Me: Yeah.

    Mirroring means something too, if we're in counsellorspeak: that's when you mimic the other guy's body language. Less likely to get confused, though.

    This is a trick Keith Johnstone recommends in Impro, but I can't remember whether it's got a name.

    "Prompting"?

    Graham
    •  
      CommentAuthoriago
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 6
    This is sort of an application of the Socratic Method, isn't it? Instead of teaching, you're creating story, but you're still achieving it by asking questions (whose is it?) instead of providing answers (this is what it is).
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 7
    Posted By: iagoThis is sort of an application of the Socratic Method, isn't it?


    Heh, my master's thesis equivalent in college was essentially "Why the Socratic Method is a Big Lie, and Sucks" (using modern connections to sociology, discourse and social constructivism, but still). :-)

    The thing about Socratic Method is that:
    1) It's deceptive. The leader always has an agenda.
    2) It goes on and on, doesn't just start and stop with one question, the leader always carries it further... again, to intentionally reinforce their point.
    3) Influence, agenda and deception are so tied into "Socratic Method" as to me inseparable.

    Even taking the idea at its face value, it leaves a funky, unsettling taste in my mouth. :-)

    -Andy
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 8
    Oh, and I like "Prompting" for now, but would love to hear more ideas if anyone's got them.

    -Andy
  9.  # 9
    GM THUNDASTRIKE
    •  
      CommentAuthoriago
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 10
    Posted By: AndyOh, and I like "Prompting" for now, but would love to hear more ideas if anyone's got them.


    Prompting is good. It also has a sort of "on the fly" or "on-demand" aspect to it that I have an urge to try to capture, since it seems to have an aspect of establishing character detail or setting background "on the fly", at the prompting (see, that's why "prompting" is good) of the GM.
  11.  # 11
    The lawyer in me immediately went to "willful blindness". You see the gravestone--heck you just pointed it out to the player--but you're intentionally not reading the name on it.

    But, personally, I like prompting. It's appropriate on two levels. In theater, it's the act of one person (off-stage) encouraging another person (the actor) to deliver their line. And in computers, its the way the computer tells you that you need to input something, i.e., we're waiting on you.
    •  
      CommentAuthoreruditus
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007 edited
     # 12
    I fourth prompting and since The Mountain Witch i like to use this all the time.

    It's a shame because my debate/conversation style is SO socratic and I have always gotten into trouble with this approach (I'd say I have mellowed a bit in that regard). People rarely like rhetorical questions when they are wrong ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorJohn Harper
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007 edited
     # 13
    This is so good. I think I've even done this, but forgot all about it. It's like I had a loaded bazooka and forgot where I put it. It was under the bed? Sweet. Thanks, Andy.
    • CommentAuthorMark W
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 14
    The Madlib Method.
    • CommentAuthorClinton
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 15
    The Eliza method.
  16.  # 16
    The cynic in me thinks of it as wakening.

    But maybe:

    sparking
    unleashing
    provoking
    actuating

    Paul
  17.  # 17
    In my text for the Infected, I call it "Fishing with dynamite"
    •  
      CommentAuthornortherain
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 18
    Maybe just ''Fishing''?
    • CommentAuthorGaerik
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 19
    Or call it "Spotting" as in "Putting the player on the spot."
    • CommentAuthortalysman
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 20

    Fishing is cool because it suggests another technique: Trolling. A GM suggesting something completely unacceptable ("A stealthy thief steals your wand of neeming!") with the intention of provoking a a demand for a rewrite ("No way! when I feel that bastard's hand on my sword, I whirl around and backhand him!") Not to be used every time, but if players are lackluster about adding to the story, trolling is one way to get them to add something...

  21.  # 21
    What is it called in sword fighting when you draw someone in?

    Story Feinting?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVaxalon
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 22
    I would like to see this thread bookmarked when people complain about jargon, as an example of both a widely agreed need for the jargon term and the difficulty in finding a good one.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVaxalon
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007 edited
     # 23
    "Content Pull"?

    "Plot Push" is "This happens"
    "Plot Pull" is "What happens here?"
    "Content Push" is "This item of color is true."
    "Content Pull" is "What color can you attach to this?"
    •  
      CommentAuthorIskander
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 24
    The Kleinert Manoeuvre
    •  
      CommentAuthorVaxalon
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 25
    Is that where you reach around someone from behind and squeeze, and a bit of color pops out?
    • CommentAuthortimfire
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 26
    Posted By: IskanderThe Kleinert Manoeuvre

    I kinda like "timtrick", myself, it has a nice ring...

    But seriously, I'm not sure. I've used Eric's "fishing" once or twice.
  27.  # 27
    Really, Andy is just trying to trick us all into agreeing on the most obtuse possible jargony term for the thing. That way, in a year or two, we will have freshly inaccessable jargon for the new folks to rally against.

    Therefore, in support of Andy's devious ways, I vote for "Timtrick". Only we need to work on shortening and altering the term 'till it's completely unrecognizable as having anything to do with a gaming technique at all. Or to do with gaming for that matter.

    Oh, I know. Let's call it "TMWT". And, next year, we can argue if it stands for "Tim's Mountain Witch Technique" or "The Mountain Witch Trick".

    Awesome.
    • CommentAuthorKynn
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 28
    Posted By: VaxalonI would like to see this thread bookmarked when people complain about jargon, as an example of both a widely agreed need for the jargon term and the difficulty in finding a good one.


    Actually, I see it as a case of gamers striving to apply a jargonesque title to everything they encounter, rather than proof that such is needed.

    I think it's a good technique to use in roleplaying games. I don't agree that all techniques need to be boiled down to a single jargon term.
    •  
      CommentAuthoriago
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 29
    Fishing and prompting still win out as the least-jargonny summarizations of what's going on in a single word. :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 30
    I like prompting.

    Either that or teh Kleinart eFfect

    With the necessary punctuation. Abbreviated KF.

    Because we should either be transparent or funny.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  31.  # 31
    oh, but prompting is also just a "regular" word usable in gaming, as in "what do you do next?"
    person A is "prompting" person B.
    so, if my cents are valued, i'm more for something-not-a-single-english-(etc)-word,-but-maybe-a-phrase-or-something.
    and, fresh from the other recent jargon post, i wanna chip in
    'but, hey, i really LIKE the term "the impossible thing before breakfast" "
    not that it would save on printing costs at all...
    ...if i were printing the internet...

    so, in ben's duality, i'm voting funny, because "transparancy ain't what it used to be" -yogi berra
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007 edited
     # 32
    I think prompting is inching ahead for the win, at least that's what I'm going to be writing into TBZ's GM Tricks section.

    Fred's four up there are interesting in the "technical designer tools" style, but I think that "prompting" is the slickest and easiest to understand from hearing it on the player/GM side of the barn.

    -Andy

    Oh, wait, that was Graham's term? Fuck that, then. :-)

    "Marvelous Proactive Collaborative Creation Prana"

    EDIT: Ohhh, how about "Narrativisationism"? That should be pretty straightforward and not loaded with meaning.
    • CommentAuthorMark W
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 33
    "That thing, you know, like in that game Tim Somebody did, with the samurai and shit... with the filling in the details... That thing."

    That ought to do it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIskander
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2007
     # 34
    Creatively undertaking narrative transferrence.
  35.  # 35
    I would have called it "soliciting player input," but shit, prompting works.
  36.  # 36
    Aggressive player immersion.
  37.  # 37
    I like provoking. You provoke a thought, you provoke a response. It's got more emotional weight to it than prompting, but a similar general meaning.
  38.  # 38
    Dude, there is totally a name for this in Impro. But I can't remember what it is. It must be on some Impro websites.
  39.  # 39
    I have *no* clue what this is called elsewhere. But it's good, and thanks for drawing attention to it.
    • CommentAuthorJudd
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2007
     # 40
    Posted By: James_NostackDude, there is totally a name for this in Impro. But I can't remember what it is. It must be on some Impro websites.


    Provoking makes sense to me.

    Barring that, I'd go with the Kleinert Five Venom Collaborative Witch Fist.

    Clinton, why the Eliza Method?
    •  
      CommentAuthoroliof
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2007 edited
     # 41
    Posted By: Juddwhy the Eliza Method?


    Because of the famous 'eliza' program by Joseph Weizenbaum, which does keep reflecting stuff back at you wrapped up in a question (a method of Rogerian psychoanalysis).

    A freely available implementation of an eliza-like system is alice bot.

    In the book where Weizenbaum tells about his development of Eliza there's this anecdote about his secretary being set up that Mr. Weizenbaum wanted to read the logs of her "sessions" with Eliza to see how well or bad the program worked. Obviously, it worked well enough (for the small domain Eliza could handle - reflecting back) to entice the secretary to tell the system very private stuff.
  42.  # 42
    I would call it 'eliciting'. That's just the closest word I have for what it is.
    • CommentAuthorMr. Teapot
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2007
     # 43
    Posted By: Dave HallettI would call it 'eliciting'.


    Eliziting?
  44.  # 44
    Posted By: Mr. Teapot
    Posted By: Dave HallettI would call it 'eliciting'.


    Eliziting?

    (grins)

    Amusing, but I was trying to stick to English as she is spoke...
    • CommentAuthorLarry
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2007
     # 45
    I'd also go with the "ELIZA effect". This is a real term in computer science. There, it means something slightly different (because computers don't actually have minds, and the people you game with hopefully do), but I think it works here well enough.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMikeRM
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2007
     # 46
    As Iago observed in another thread, giving it a name which is a word in common usage - that is, appropriating that word and giving it a specialized technical meaning in a certain context - is potentially more confusing than giving it a unique name that is obviously a technical term.

    Even if it isn't instantly obvious what that term means.

    Because it's not instantly obvious what the common term means, either - you still have to explain, and if people are confused by the common usage it's harder for them to listen to your explanation.
    •  
      CommentAuthornemomeme
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2007
     # 47
    What's being described is very close to being an Offer in improv terminology. It's been my strongest technique since I fell into doing it in a Cyberpunk 2020 campaign in the late 80s and had amazing results; the group grew from 3 players to two groups of 7-8 players each on word of mouth. Except then I called it, "man-we-have-been-gaming-and-blue-booking-for-eight-hours-and-I-can't-think-anymore-why-don't-you-tell-me?"
    • CommentAuthorLarry
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2007
     # 48
    Ooh, Offer is good too.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJoey P
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2007
     # 49
    I'd call "The Mountain Witch Trick" passing the fiat since the GM is temporarily passing that authority to another player - in a way limited by the scope of the question.
    •  
      CommentAuthorGraham
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2007 edited
     # 50
    Oooh, hold on, again.

    Matthew's right to suggest the term offer to describe this. But it's not "offer" as in "offering" it to the players.

    An offer in improv is any addition to the scene that other players can build on. Roughly translated into game terms, an offer would be anything added to the shared fiction for players to build on:

    GM: There's a mural on the wall, depicting people dying in battle.

    Now, there's another improv concept: the blind offer. In a blind offer, you add something to the scene, but you only partially define it, leaving it to someone else to define.

    Translated into game terms, it's pretty much what Andy suggests...

    GM [makes blind offer]: There's a mural on the wall. The paintings on it are disturbing.
    Player [defines blind offer]: Yeah, they're scenes of people dying in battle.

    Except, in Andy's original post, the GM is framing part of the blind offer as a question. But that's fine. It's still a blind offer.

    Graham
    •  
      CommentAuthorJasonP
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2007
     # 51
    'prompting' is awesome, and something like 'cueing' or 'cued input' would work in the same vein.
    • CommentAuthorBryan
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2007
     # 52
    "Ya, last night I was involved in a seriously good game of D&D. The DM kept prompting, and it totally rocked the game up the wall." WTF?

    or

    "Ya, last night I was involved in a seriously good game of D&D. The DM kept asking us open ended questions that forced us as players to input to the game, and it totally rocked the game up the wall." Much better, cause I can understand what the person is talking about.
    • CommentAuthorKynn
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2007
     # 53
    Bryan,

    Good luck trying to convince people that descriptions are necessary when they really all want to become Ronfamous by making up the latest hip new jargon.

    Apparently the jargon is what makes us all experts, so anyone who didn't understand your first example would be selected out of participation. Because your second example is just SO unSCIENTIFIC.

    --Kynn, pissy for various reasons tonight
  54.  # 54
    jargon is just there so you can say "this exact thing" without having to say "this exact thing" every time you're trying to say things about it. it's a handle.

    and different fields always end up using the same terms to mean completely different things - like "evolution" in biology vs "evolution" in chemistry, or the infamous "energy" in parapsychology vs "energy" in physics & science - which almost never are quite in line with the common parlance.

    you don't need jargon most of the time, just when you're trying to explain things clearly <i>and have it all interconnect with an established body of technical discussion</i>. more or less...
    • CommentAuthorJudd
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2007
     # 55
    Posted By: Bryan"Ya, last night I was involved in a seriously good game of D&D. The DM kept asking us open ended questions that forced us as players to input to the game, and it totally rocked the game up the wall." Much better, cause I can understand what the person is talking about.


    Agreed.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVaxalon
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2007
     # 56
    Try this on for size:

    Today, I'd like to talk a bit about asking open ended questions as a GM that invite players to input to the game. For those of you unfamiliar with the technique, I encourage you to try it; asking open ended questions as a GM that invite players to input to the game really can open up the creative wellsprings in the game group. Now I will admit that asking open ended questions as a GM that invite players to input to the game takes a good deal of trust. After all, if you're asking open ended questions as a GM that invite players to input to the game, then by definition you have to accept the input they give you. For some gamemasters, this is more trust in the players than they're willing to give. I submit, however, that many games could be improved by granting this trust. The only situation I can think of where asking open ended questions as a GM that invite players to input to the game would be harmful would be a highly exploratory game, where investigating an unknown situation created by the gamemaster is the focus of play.

    Personally, I'd rather not write like this.
    • CommentAuthorKynn
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2007
     # 57
    ...

    Wow, so the problem here seems to be "jargon is needed because game designers don't know how to write English."

    I'm just glad I'm a writer first, and a game designer second.
  58.  # 58
    How would you write it, Kynn?
    •  
      CommentAuthorVaxalon
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2007
     # 59
    My point:

    Jargon is a pronoun with a (hopefully) understood referent.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2007 edited
     # 60
    Hey all, I think we got a lock on some cool terms to use for the "The Mountain Witch Trick". It seems like we pretty much exhausted that line of thought. Thanks to everyone who helped!

    As for the merits of Jargon or the merits of turning the above trick into a piece of Jargon, let's take that discussion somewhere else kthxbye.

    -Andy
  61.  # 61
    Posted By: AndyAs for the merits of Jargon or the merits of turning the above trick into a piece of Jargon, let's take that discussion somewhere else kthxbye.

    Man, Andy, I wish you'd said "some-forum else."

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