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Games and Gaming: CRPG [Final Fantasy]

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  1.  
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2006 edited
     # 1
    Levi, you got mentioned on RPG Blog.

    I was reading over your system I was thinking about using it to make this Beta of a d20 mod I had actually workable. I saw that your system has a Health Track; if you're available, could you think about or expound upon the possibility of using your system with Magic Points added in?

    Or you can just kill the blasphemer (me) now. But let me utter this: good job. I hate my current d20 gaming, but this is neat enough to get me to try it again from a different perspective.
  2.  # 2

    Anything you want to use from there, go. Use it any way you want. Total blessings.

    Now, that said, magic points are something I considered. God, the number of things I considered for that system is incalculable; I almost managed to grind out the difference between progressive bonuses and skills in one draft, which might have led into using the rules as a full-on confict system.

    Anyway, my original conception was to have an add-on, loosely based around the idea of "tokens" in Iron Heroes; something like five different possible kinds of tokens - and then build feat trees around each kind of token, with ways of getting and spending tokens in each.

    The idea there was that magic would just be another one (or two) of those trees.

    Never did get it finished, though. Hacking d20 at that level is hard, and I kept noticing small mistakes I made, even in the version of Perfect 20 I'm hosting.

  3.  # 3
    Hmm, with 1-5 tokens spent to activate these feat tree abilities?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2006 edited
     # 4
    Take a look at this page I whipped up. It has your text and a pdf I liberated from an insular mailing list. Maybe you could see how they might work together (time allowing, of course).
  5.  # 5
    Oh, my god.

    You have my old FF stuff.
  6.  # 6
    Now I know where the similarities came from. Damn @_@
  7.  # 7

    Dude, my name is right there. Page 3 of the FF pdf; right at the end of the introduction.

    It's just spooky seeing those two documents on the same page.

    So, you want to mix and match them?

    Or do you want to build something else using bits of each?

  8.  # 8
    Wait. Mark, that was an accident? Fuh-REEKY.
  9.  # 9
    Honestly, yeah. I read the RPG Blog post this morning and started taking a look at Perfect 20. I thought, "Hmm? What would I use this for?" Later in the day, I looked through my folder of random pdfs and saw the Final Fantasy one I'd had for so long, having stored it in an Interesting Ideas folder. I flipped through it, and, having either not looked at the credits before or simply not remembering, I didn't make any connection other than the intense similarities.

    Anywho, yeah, I want to Perfect 20 up some Final Fantasy with a splash of this guy's work, too:

    Kamikaze Midget's Final Fantasy Zero
    •  
      CommentAuthorjhkim
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2006
     # 10
    Hi, Mark.

    If it helps, I did a port of Perfect20 to HTML so it would be in an editable format for anyone who wants to use the open content.

    http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/srd/perfect20/
  11.  # 11
    Okay. What in Kamikaze Midget's stuff appeals to you?

    Because, hoo boy, doy I have a bucket of readily-available ideas on ways you could conceivably do this one. I just don't want to do the hard work.
  12.  # 12
    I will reply when if I get a chance, just wanted to inform you of my busy work day.

    John: You rock! Awesome.
  13.  # 13
    Okay, here we go. What I want to try to do is this: Make some choices, try to polish it, get it together and run it at NC Gameday in late April. So, I want Perfect20 plus Final Fantasy. Kamikaze's stuff really just emphasizes the color.

    So, I was thinking that 'classes' could be Feat trees. I was looking for ugly HP in the thousands and MP in the hundreds, but if they don't work easily with P20, then I'm cool. Also, I wanted to pimp out the creature creation section as combined with a 'random battle' thing, if possible, but I'd only throw them into treasure chests, ya know?

    This is no attempt to recreate or perfect a system (unless it grabs me further). It's really an attempt to run something d20 at a d20 Gaming Day.

    So, where do we go from here?
  14.  # 14
    Okay, here's how I'd do it.

    You've got a nice whack of class features you can mod up into feats in the trees. Pick and choose as desired, but keep an eye on easy abuses.

    Proficiency / MP need working over. My recommendation, first thought off the top of my head, and taken from the FFCS stuff, goes like this:

    Define all the equipment normally used by the class. Then clearly state that all "Job feat trees" follow the same progression, which is as follows:

    -Upon taking the first feat in the tree, the character becomes proficient with the whole kit, but *only* when using that equipment and nothing else.

    -Each additional feat grants it's main benefit, and also grants full, *normal* proficiency with one of those items.

    -Each feat in a Job tree *also* grants MP equal to (whatever fits the class).

    --------

    Pimping out HP is tricky without going back to a regular HP-like system. I can't think of a way to do it otherwise, off-hand.

    MP I'd lift straight out of the FFCS, but add a zero to all the numbers. Because it's fun. And then I'd screw around with the spells.

    Flavour text in the FFCS is lame. Take your inspirations from elsewhere.

    Monster building in P20 was never fully tested. Expect a few odd results if you push the system there; I'd love to hear what they are if you find any.

    -------

    That's just me. But that's how I'd come at it. Does that answer things, or just spur more questions?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2006 edited
     # 15
    So long as I do the 'hard work', are you available for feedback? (Just making sure.)
  16.  # 16
    Hell, yes.
  17.  # 17
    *grumble grumble* work. I have two pages of stuff I wrote during class last night. I will try to get it up when I can.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2006 edited
     # 18
    So, uhm, I've written so much drifty stuff that this may barely resemble Perfect 20. I still think it will work for the underbones resolution system.

    Here are my notes from the last few nights, presented in streamed format (copied online as I wrote them in the notebook - I will be editing as best I can):

    Characters (defined by):

    • Weapons
    • Magic Use
    • Special Abilities (MP usage)


    Job trees to follow Feat trees:

    .............|--------º[2]
    ..[1]º--- |--------º[3]
    .............|--------º[4]
    .............|--------º[5]

    Weapon Abilities:
    Offer access to Job
    Enhance Stats (Martial/Athletic)
    Weapon Subabilities:
    - "Breaks"
    - Combination Attacks

    Armor Abilities:
    Offer Special Abilities
    Enhance Stats (Magical/Social)
    Armor Subabilities:
    - Spell Effects
    - Elemental Alignment/Defense

    Martial Stats:
    Strength - Damage
    Dexterity - Defense/Dodge
    Constitution - HP

    Social Stats
    Intelligence - Damage
    Willpower - Defense/Dodge
    Charisma - MP

    Jobs are defined as 5 level tracks. Each Job will be defined by a Primary Stat, a Secondary Stat, a Primary ability, a Secondary ability, and a Final ability:

    Level 1 - Primary Stat Increase/Primary Ability
    Level 2 - Secondary Ability/Feat
    Level 3 - Secondary Stat Increase/Primary Ability Enhanced
    Level 4 - Secondary Ability Enhanced/Feat
    Level 5 - Final Ability

    Weapons would also have Levels, 1 - 5. Damage, if you hit, would be automatic and would be equal to the level of the Weapon + Strength/Intelligence minus the level of Armor (or Dexterity/Willpower), but you would also roll some dice based on its level. This will provide the ugly HP 'damage' but not actually impact a value called 'HP'. The purpose of this is for 'Limit Breaks' on weapons.

    For example, Kain is attacking with Gugnir, a Level 3 weapon. After a successful melee attack, he deals 3 plus his Strength, 2, damage. The creature wears no armor, but has a Dexterity of 2. The damage is 3. He then rolls 3d10, gets a result of 562, and declares that he dealt 3,562 damage to the creature.

    Level 1 - 1d10 Results - 0 - 9 [10-99]
    Level 2 - 2d10 Results - 00 - 99 [100 - 999]
    Level 3 - 3d10 Results - 000 - 999 [1,000 - 9,999]
    Level 4 - 4d10 Results - 0000 - 9999 [10,000 - 99,999]
    Level 5 - 5d10 Results - 00000 - 99999 [100,000 - 999,999]

    Kain's player then notes the result of 562. He adds it to a current running total, and when it reaches a certain amount (10,000 in this case) his weapon levels up.

    The level of the weapon also applies to a 'Limit Break' Pyramid. Every successful hit adds +1 to a d4, and every miss adds +2. The player puts the a d4 on his pyramid and notes it during battle. Every time a row is full of d4s showing '4', then that level is available as a 'Limit Break'. To cash in on a 'Limit Break', the player announces it before their attack action and clears off the pyramid. The player doesn't have to blow on the current level they're working on, they can go for the previous level. (This is supposed to be similar to Cyan's ability in FF6 or Limit Breaks in FF7).

    'Limit Breaks' could be as simple as extra attacks or guaranteed hits, or complicated in being required for Combination Attacks or activating Special Abilities.

    'Limit Break' Pyramid:

    Level 1..........[ ]
    Level 2........[ ] [ ]
    Level 3......[ ] [ ] [ ]
    Level 4....[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
    Level 5..[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]

    End of Page 1 of Notes. Comments?
  19.  # 19
    I like the ideas so far quite a lot. Yeah, you're wandering a long way from the base. But you're doing it in all cases, so far as I can see, to get a more perfect vision of the original material expressed in you game. That's an unqualified good thing.

    So I'm liking it. My only caution so far would be: Watch out for the snowball effect. I've seen it hit FF game stuff often. I don't see it yet, here, but watch for it.
  20.  # 20
    So, would you recommend sticking with Perfect 20 as the bones, or just going whole hog and making my (our) own?
  21.  # 21
    Not sure. d20 as a base is easy because there just so much conversion stuff to grab from. Here's another stockpile:

    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/forumdisplay.php?s=0f7ccde774ed0fc1eccc9906c6e31575&f=106

    But it depends what you want it to play like. Perfect 20 is *small* and easy to adapt; that's really why starting there might be good. But if your vision of what you want doesn't fit well, it might be better to come at it right from the source material.

    That's one huge whackload of work, though. Are you excited enough about the idea to do it all?
  22.  # 22
    Yeah, I'd found them a while back, as well.

    I was excited about the three pages of notes I wrote. I've been wanting something like this for a while.

    Small, easy to adapt. I like that. I think I'll keep it for now. But Pages 2 and 3 have some inklings of tokens and a 'Story Combat' system that may require something different.

    Again, I know that I'm the one with the workload. I'm just glad to have an editorial staff :P
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2006 edited
     # 23
    Also, pay attention to numbers: 3 and 5. I use them repeatedly. I hope it flows through the game as a milestone that the reader can use, and especially in further development.

    That's one huge whackload of work, though. Are you excited enough about the idea to do it all?

    Well, if I get it done, then it'll be on the shoulders of the Giant of Bab-Il that I do so (and yours and others as well).
  24.  # 24
    Heh. Much with the cool.

    Question, also, from my old projects list. Did you ever see this:
    http://members.shaw.ca/LeviK/8bitDungeon.pdf
  25.  # 25
    That was the only project I knew about you before I found Perfect 20. I saw it in your sig line on EN World. I think the 5 level jobs came from that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2006 edited
     # 26
    I think I've got two entirely different games brewing here. One could just be a definition of Jobs as 5 level classes, one definition of front row and back row, and some advice on how to do prestige classes.

    The other is this other beast. Playing cards, story combats, limit breaks, minigames.

    I'm trying to decide what to do, and I hate to be wishy-washy about it. Any thoughts?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2006 edited
     # 27
    So, some example Jobs, the stats they're based off of, and a map of classes (incomplete):


    • Fighter:
      Pri Stat: Str
      Sec Stat: Con
      L. 5 Fighter gives access to Knight Job. Knight L. 5 plus White Mage L. 5 gives Paladin. Knight L. 5 plus Black Mage L. 5 gives Dark Knight.

    • Black Mage:
      Pri Stat: Int
      Sec Stat: Cha
      L.5 Black Mage gives access to [Black Oracle] (better name?) Black Oracle L. 5 plus Fighter L. 5 gives Battle Mage.

    • White Mage:
      Pri Stat: Wil
      Sec Stat: Cha
      L. 5 White Mage gives access to [White Oracle] White Oracle L.5 plus Fighter L. 5 gives Cleric.

    • Thief:
      Pri Stat: Dex
      Sec Stat: Wil
      L. 5 Thief gives access to Ninja. Ninja L. 5 plus Black Mage L. 5 gives Assassin.

    • Monk:
      Pri Stat: Dex
      Sec Stat: Con
      L. 5 Monk gives access to [Master]. L. 5 Master plus L. 5 Thief gives access to Drunken Master.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2006 edited
     # 28
    What a weapon 'character sheet' might look like:

    Weapon

















    Name: Gugnir Element/Status: Air/Holy
    Level: 1/5 Combination Attack: Pinning Attack
    Type: Melee Limit Break: Tornado
    Stat: Strength Job: Dragoon
  29.  # 29
    Very, very nice. I'm not sure which way you should go, because, well, I'm not really sure about how the other game you've got in your head fits together. Personally, I just play with stuff until I hit one group of things I really, really love, that work together, and then build the rest of the game around those things, trying to keep it simple. If you can get a cohesive group of mechanics like that, go for it.

    One nitpick stands out. "Oracle"?
    White mage = Priest.
    Black mage = Wizard
    Time Mage = Sorcerer
    ...If you need alternate names, those are from FF Tactics.
  30.  # 30
    Yeah, I drew a blank. Your names were what I was looking for. I think I'll grab a FAQ from gamefaqs about FFT as that was the most definitive of Job listings.
  31.  # 31
    So, I defined what might be some useful elements in a game like this using a five suit card deck.
  32.  # 32
    Interesting.

    You thinking about moving to cards for resolution?

    (Personally, I'm a fan of cards; I'm just not sure how they'd fit with the feel of Final Fantasy).
  33.  # 33
    Yeah, that's where my mental schism lay. I really really REALLY want to do a game with cards, but how they fit with what I create is questionable. Some would say table the cards for a different project; I see it as a trademark of mine that I want to develop.

    I've played a lot of games recently that have cards and I can't see going back. Face of Angels, Shab-al-Hiri Roach, PTA, Runebound, and even further down the chain is Bang!

    Cards remind people of rules, feel good in the hands, allow someone to 'schedule' based off of knowledge of how well they'll do (thus allowing them to prioritize what they want to succeed at), give people something to do/look at if the focus isn't currently on them, and, most importantly:

    My wife tends to play games with cards in them.

    Rant and digression aside, I can see so much being done with it that it's scary.

    • Character cards with cool illustrations.
    • A pile for 'random' treasure. (if you're into that - still a design concept I'm leery of, i.e. randomness in anything other than resolution techniques)
    • Cut Scenes - FMVs played out - Players are given a list of objectives. Looking at their cards for the scene, they split up the actions necessary to complete it. Teamwork and a good knowledge of how well you'll do will cause for the best scenes. Great for nailbiting, tense scenes if you still leave in Task Resolution, in my opinion.
    • Nothing would make me happier to see someone sit down with their 'character' and lay her out, piece by piece, spell by spell, summon by summon. It'd be neat to tap summons or spells for ongoing effects. No more forgetting your mage armor is up or that you're HP is higher when your Berserked!
    • CommentAuthorBlue
    • CommentTimeMar 17th 2006
     # 34
    Quote:
    "A pile for 'random' treasure. (if you're into that - still a design concept I'm leery of, i.e. randomness in anything other than resolution techniques)"

    This could actually be cool if scaled with the equivalent of character (and/or defeated monster) level. Ie., the EXACT treasure the card provides depends on the circumstances under which it was draw. Still random, but limits the "Oh cool, I just started and drew the best weapon in the game!" factor.
  35.  # 35
    Blue said:

    This could actually be cool if scaled with the equivalent of character (and/or defeated monster) level. Ie., the EXACT treasure the card provides depends on the circumstances under which it was draw. Still random, but limits the "Oh cool, I just started and drew the best weapon in the game!" factor.

    Which goes back to giving weapons and items 'levels', making it easy to put them in stacks or things like that.
  36.  # 36
    "I drew another flame sword. Crappy."

    "Uh, no, dude, that's awesome. Stack it on your other one."

    "Oh. Cool!"

    Yeah. Lots of possible coolnesses.
  37.  # 37
    So, I'm looking at three options now, really.


    1. 'Standard' RPG: dice and paper.
    2. 'Modified' RPG: playing cards and paper.
    3. RPG?: designer cards. paper?


    Maybe I should look in a different direction, and see what happens after I've developed something else. This design stuff is tough :P
  38.  # 38
    Sword Chuckery: The Designer Card Game?
  39.  # 39
    Notes I originally took on 'Story Combat':

    - PCs fight to complete stakes in a certain way, in a certain amount of time, or both.

    - Each Story Combat will be predefined arenas with specific predefined goals.

    e.g. Objective: Defeat the Bishop!

    • Goals:

      Protect the Innocents. (Innocent church goers, which can be targeted as a group, can't be Knocked Out)


      Knock Down the Bishop (Knock Down is reduction to 5% of one's total HP)


    • Conditions: Fire magic prohibited.
    • Time: 10 Rounds
    • Stakes:

      Bishop will confess in front of gathered crowd.


      Bishop will be Confused for first round of next combat.



    This, I imagined, was a confrontation of a corrup Bishop in front of a mass of parishoners. In true CRPG style, you would beat the truth of him (and the people would believe it, because he would start attacking them to distract the heroes). No fire so that the church doesn't come down, and once he confesses, you could proceed to the real combat with the real stats and defeat the monster.

  40.  # 40
    ...That's quite neat. Overall, I like that.
  41.  # 41
    Levi: Overall? What don't you like?

    The reason I ask is because that might point me to things to work on, because I've pretty much brain dumped what my creative streak came up with.
  42.  # 42
    The idea of structuring a fixed battle in that way. It's got some nice hints of crunch tactical stuff, but no overload. It's also got clear stakes that aren't just "we beat you up". Overall, that's a distinctive step forward from the stuff I did, in terms of emulating how those fights "feel".
  43.  # 43
    Yeah, I had also imagined side goals for all sorts of reasons to tempt the players as to what they were going to accomplish during the Story Combats.

    For instance:

    Side Goal: Knock the chandelier down.
    Effect A: Dropping it on Toad the Toady will knock him out, making the fight substantially easier.
    Effect B: Dropping it on unoccupied floor will knock a hole in the floor, which hides a Level 3 Treasure.

    or:

    Side Goal: Innocents take no damage whatsoever (Wall will target all of them, so will other spells. The Bishop has a Mage's Torque [prevents Mute]).
    Effect A: After defeating the Bishop, the Innocents will tell everyone about you, if you ask them to. Access can be given to all Locked areas of town.
    Effect B: After defeating the Bishop, the Innocents will cover up your presence, if you ask them to. The Thieves' Guild that is seeking you will not find you while in this town.
  44.  # 44
    That's almost perfect.

    I'm not sure how you'd set it up so GMs can do it easily, though.
  45.  # 45
    I was thinking of a guide, where you could make parameters equal a value, and the scene equal another value.

    Side Goal: One character action that requires Item Break technique (or Summon with same technique).
    Level 3 (5) Side Goal.

    Side Goal: Specific Spell (Level 5) (or Pre-emptive Attack technique + Accessory Break technique and Specific Spell (Level 3)).
    Level 5 (9) Side Goal
  46.  # 46
  47.  # 47
    OMFG! How helpful that was!

    Lookee here!

    Using the design principle that nothing on the character sheet shouldn't be used/important, I came up with this:

    Each class you take gives you at least one key phrase of your choosing. It doesn't just have to apply to battle, it can be interpreted in all scenarios. The level of your class 1-5 indicates how many cards you get to pull when doing that action, and you get a trump suit for that action. The classes are predefined, giving you something mechanical (I stuck with HP and MP for this example) which is listed on the back. You have a Base number of cards for any action, and base HP/MP, and these are all level based.

    Whaddya think?
  48.  # 48
    Hmm, I can't think of a reason that someone would want to align multiple traits to different suits. Maybe it should be at a one-for-one?

1 to 48 of 48

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