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Games and Gaming: I'll Be Blunt: Why do you have no interest in Passages?

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      CommentAuthorNathan H.
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2007 edited
     # 81
    so why enter into all of these cool stories, if ya still have to be just some victorian shlub?
    there's little to no support for playing actual literary characters.
    there's little support for "Narrators", who have alot of work to do, traditionally.
    sure, you can play in any story you want, but can't any game sort of do that?
    your mechanic's focus on conflict resolution, not on creating interesting fiction. it's a problem solving engine, not a story making one.
    hmm...what else.
    it's a great idea, one that's not too too original, but still great!
    i'm not sure why you don't support how literary charcters relate to other literay characters, cuz that's really the gem of the idea. how would robin hood deal with the jabberwocky? how would alice deal with the wicked witch?
  2.  # 82
    Ryan whispered me a great question, so I'm breaking the Whisper Trust and repeating it here:

    Who is my target audience?

    Sure, I'd like to sell to True20 folks who still like to use hit points, lit majors, and fans of specific works. But I think my real target audience -- indeed, the reason I wrote the system in the first place -- was for people like myself. I.e., people born and raised on D&D/d20 who don't have the prep time those games/systems require and don't need/want to be bothered with the byzantine minutiae present in them.

    I recognize that I didn't do a great job of expressing that with the final product. Yes, the book is 300 pages, but the rules themselves can be boiled down to five pages or less ... and be 100% functional. (That's the first thing I put on my list for the Narrator's Guide.) I can see now that the 300 pages is a negative for many people (at least on these boards). So, again, I need to do a better job on the site, in the demo, etc., of conveying what playing and running the game is really like and really all about.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAnemone
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2007
     # 83
    Posted By: Justin D. JacobsonI can see now that the 300 pages is a negative for many people (at least on these boards).

    Well, it is if I anticipate that 100-200 of these pages are going to be rules or related crunchy bits like feats and spells. It's not if they are GM advice, setting material, plot creation ideas, a toolbox of things I can use in the game.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2007
     # 84
    Speaking for me, personally?

    I have zero interest in Victoriana.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  5.  # 85
    Posted By: Justin D. JacobsonWho is my target audience?

    If it wasn't due to the whisper conversation, I wouldn't have whispered it. I'm glad you brought it out. (That, and as an aside, this is started to become the thing I get on the pulpit most about. It's almost like I have a master plan or something.)

    But I think my real target audience -- indeed, the reason I wrote the system in the first place -- was for people like myself. I.e., people born and raised on D&D/d20 who don't have the prep time those games/systems require and don't need/want to be bothered with the byzantine minutiae present in them.

    Bold. Highlight. Stick this on your fridge. This is your selling point of the d20 of Passages & Bullseye. At least, it's the beginning.

    That said, it still may not appeal to some of us. Frankly, it now appeals more to me, because I know some d20 folks I think I could try running this for, based on that quote.

    I'd like to point out something Justin, in case you're missing it: you're selling a few of us on the game as a result of this thread. Think about what you're doing that's causing that.
    • CommentAuthorMike Holmes
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2007 edited
     # 86
    Ryan beat me to it.

    And that's a perfect principle. Figure out why you like the game, and tell people that. We can call it the Jacobsen Principle.

    I think that Truth in advertising is a watchword (watchphrase?) for RPGs.

    Mike
    •  
      CommentAuthorHalfjack
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2007
     # 87
    Never heard a peep about it before today, so the publisher/author/owner-operator/whoever has dropped the ball on promotion. It's not in my FLGS and no one appears to be talking it up.

    Now that I've looked at it, it's not clear that it does anything interesting. If the web site had a quarter the verbiage and it was all about what the game does and why that's fun, I might be inclined to read further and wonder if I'd like to own it.
    •  
      CommentAuthoreruditus
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2007
     # 88
    I bought Passages as part of the Jennifer Rodgers collection. Victoriana DOES insterest me greatly and the size wasn't a big issue. I plan on adding it as one of the next characters I add to the character project page. Passages having the d20 moniker and so many bleeding edge games out there for me to try has really kept me away from reading it further. My wife is really keen on trying this but has been distracted by Artesia and my Mouseguard project. Unfortunely I am concerned that Unhallowed Metropolis may unseat Passages further.

    I promise I will do a two session actual play review in October - AP are just something I feel I am responsible for when I buy a book.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMatthijs
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2007
     # 89
    For myself - I don't think I'd ever heard of the game before. However, d20 stuff gets filtered out from my perception - simply because, in my experience, I've never had any use for d20 products.
  10.  # 90
    One of my biggest disappointments is that I didn't nominate this game for the d20 ENnie. I absolutely loved it, and I'm sorry that it didn't get the exposure it deserved.
    • CommentAuthorPramas
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2007
     # 91
    It sounds like you had similar problems to our Thieves' World line. Our TW Player's Manual made many rules changes to better reflect the nature of the setting. We also included a chapter in the city book, Shadowspawn's Guide to Sanctuary, on just using the d20 rules as is for folks who wanted to do that. Nonetheless, we were told the line was unattractive because the rules departed from the d20 norm.

    Now we could have done Thieves' World as a stand alone game but that didn't seem like a great idea at the time. In retrospect I wish we had. The whole d20 logo did not work in our favor with TW. And you'll note we are doing a brand new game system for A Song of Ice and Fire.
  12.  # 92
    Thanks, Chris... that's a fascinating bit of marketing data.

    What's ironic is that the "departure" of the TW product makes me want to hunt down a copy now. :-)

    Mike
    •  
      CommentAuthorAnemone
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2007
     # 93
    Posted By: PramasNow we could have done Thieves' World as a stand alone game but that didn't seem like a great idea at the time. In retrospect I wish we had. The whole d20 logo did not work in our favor with TW. And you'll note we are doing a brand new game system for A Song of Ice and Fire.

    Interesting. Between that and the publication of a systemless Freeport sourcebook, is Green Ronin trying to cushion itself against the seismic effects of WotC's move to a D&D/D20 4e?
    •  
      CommentAuthorRich Stokes
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2007 edited
     # 94
    Posted By: AnemoneInteresting. Between that and the publication of a systemless Freeport sourcebook, is Green Ronin trying to cushion itself against the seismic effects of WotC's move to a D&D/D20 4e?


    It is my understanding that this is exactly why they did that. And True 20. Which is smart.

    I read it here:

    http://greenronin.com/2006/03/the_future_of_freeport.php

    Moving into 2006 we had a problem though. Well, several problems really. First, Freeport: City of Adventure was sold out and had been for quite some time. Nor could we do a simple reprint because the original was written for the D&D 3.0 rules and since its publication the 3.5 edition had been released. To complicate matters further, all d20 publishers from WotC on down had been watching their d20 sales degrade after 3.5 came out. It would thus have been a risk to do a 3.5 revision of Freeport: City of Adventure. Doubly so, with 4th edition clearly on the horizon. We had already watched our 3.0 backstock rendered obsolete when 3.5 came out, so we didn't want to do a new marquee product tied to 3.5 only to see the same thing happened when 4th edition was announced.


    This was 18 months ago. Smart.
    • CommentAuthorPramas
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2007 edited
     # 95
    Posted By: AnemoneInteresting. Between that and the publication of a systemless Freeport sourcebook, is Green Ronin trying to cushion itself against the seismic effects of WotC's move to a D&D/D20 4e


    Oh yeah, definitely. My fear was that we'd do a new big Freeport d20 book and then WotC would announce 4th edition shortly thereafter. So what happened on the very day the Pirate's Guide to Freeport debuted? WotC announced 4E. I was sure glad I had made that decision. And I became really enamoured of the whole systemless setting book idea too. There are many fantasy games that don't have a lot of campaign settings to choose from. Why not do a book that could appeal to GMs of them all?
    •  
      CommentAuthorAnemone
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2007
     # 96
    Posted By: PramasAnd I became really enamoured of the whole systemless setting book idea too. There are many fantasy games that don't have a lot of campaign settings to choose from. Why not do a book that could appeal to GMs of them all?

    This might even take us back to the OP a little, since in truth I'd be more interested in a system-less (or multi-system) Passages than in a d20 one. I picture chapters on staples of the genre and the era, how to create literary Victorian adventures, adventure seeds, etc. Justin, is that something that would have any interest at all for you?

    By the way, Chris, the system-less approach is definitely working on me: I've already decided I must have the Pirate's Guide to Freeport, and I doubt I would have if it had been straight d20 material (though I might have picked up a True20 one.)
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2007
     # 97
    By the way, Chris, the system-less approach is definitely working on me: I've already decided I must have thePirate's Guide to Freeport, and I doubt I would have if it had been straight d20 material (though Imighthave picked up a True20 one.)


    Ditto for me. I almost picked up Freeport at the con, so I could run it using Clinton's The Shadow of Yesterday or Vincent's new pirate game, Poison'd. I do like a lot of Green Ronin's d20 hacks (and would probably dig Justin's work on Passages too), but that's more from a game design standpoint than from viewing it as stuff I'm really hankering to use in play.

    The only reason I didn't buy Passages, Justin, was from wanting to limit my expenditures to stuff I knew I would be able to play in the next 6 months. I enjoyed playing Giger Counter with you, love the art Jennifer did for your game, and really dig the Jurisfiction-style premise. I'd jump at a chance to play it next time I see you.
    • CommentAuthorjdrakeh
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2007 edited
     # 98
    Posted By: noclue
    Posted By: jdrakehan incredibly cool concept with a deep undercurrent of philospohical badassitude


    Now that's a quote that sells.


    People should pay me to write ad copy, really. I know that at least one of my quotes is floating around in the hardcover version of Philip Reed's vs. Monsters. I could promote the hell out of some games, given the motivation and my familiarity with the consumer mindset (I kept myself entertained in the years that I wasn't playing RPGs by reviewing various marketing data and consumer purchasing trends). I am constantly re-examining and applying that data, to some degree, in the free-press stuff that I do. Those products serve as a kind of 'testing ground' for a planned future product that will crush the soul of arthouse gaming, rape your frontal lobe with unadulterated badassitude, leave you curled up in a fetal position, shaking, soaked in your own urine, and begging to be violated all over again. Or something like that.
  19.  # 99
    (Checking in from Canada)

    Chris, it sounds like we did have a very similar problem, which clearly suggests something about stand-alone setting-games that use an unnamed d20 hack. By way of trivia, I should mention to the others that I had submitted Passages for the True20 setting search. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had that come to fruition. Also, I had always intended to distill the system in Passages further to a barely recognizeable distant mutant cousin of d20. Originally, I was calling it Bullseye 20, but changed it just to Bullseye to further distance it from d20 (the ad in Passages uses Bullseye 20).

    Sophie, one of the things I was always planning on doing was a series of free pdfs with literary characters and related adventure seeds, etc. I'm thinking about doing another series with descriptions of new literary worlds. I'm hoping that I can fill out the setting that way without repurposing the entire product.
    • CommentAuthorkomradebob
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2007
     # 100
    Posted By: Anemone
    Posted By: PramasAnd I became really enamoured of the whole systemless setting book idea too. There are many fantasy games that don't have a lot of campaign settings to choose from. Why not do a book that could appeal to GMs of them all?

    This might even take us back to the OP a little, since in truth I'd be more interested in a system-less (or multi-system)Passagesthan in a d20 one. I picture chapters on staples of the genre and the era, how to create literary Victorian adventures, adventure seeds, etc. Justin, is that something that would have any interest at all for you?

    By the way, Chris, the system-less approach is definitely working on me: I've already decided I must have thePirate's Guide to Freeport, and I doubt I would have if it had been straight d20 material (though Imighthave picked up a True20 one.)


    I actually skipped TW because it was d20, and went and tracked down the old Chaosium TW stuff on E-bay instead. I would have totally gone for a non-system TW book by preference.
  21.  # 101
    Isn't Passages the game that has "Asian" as a character class? I heard that somewhere and the game went on my mental ignore list. I'd be happy to learn I was mistaken.
    • CommentAuthorwoodelf
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2007 edited
     # 102
    Posted By: TempleWell, technically its not d20, its OGL..


    No, technically it is D20 System, he's just not allowed to tell us. SotC is OGL [and not D20 System].
    • CommentAuthorwoodelf
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007
     # 103
    OK, numerous unsourced quotes in this response, because the board won't let you quote anything but the last page of a thread, so I had to put this together the hard way.

    edit: and i've had to chop this up, because it's apparenty too long. grrr...

    - "Dainty. Palatable. Non-Constipating." - WTF?
    - "The only Game Preparation which is uninjurious to the digestion because of the slow measured absorption of rules and use of a singular icosahedron for resolution. The only Game Preparation of agreeable taste to all palates, and an excellent substitute for Cod-Liver oil. Prescribed by eminent practitioners to lymphatic and scrofulous children; to adolescents for troubles associated with growth, amenorrhoea, etc.; to adults for asthma, syphilis, and female hysteria; and to all ages for chronic bouts of ennui." - WTF? If I wasn't reviewing this for this thread, I would have left at this point.


    The game blurb may be amusing but it's so difficult to read for a modern English speaker that it's off-putting. I gave up after the first couple of sentences because I shouldn't have to work that hard just to get an idea of what the game is about.


    You really found it hard to read? Huh. That never would've occurred to me--so I can see how it might not've occurred to Justin. I mean, it's perfectly good English, using normal English words (well, ok, i had to suss out "scrofulous" from context), spelled properly. Compared to reading internet-ese, not to mention text messaging, it's positively crystal clear.

    And I found it entertainingly out-of-context. And the intent perfectly clear, because i've seen a fair number of turn-of-the-century ads, mostly for "patent medicines". One of the coolest things ever was when i was interviewing an elderly man in an assisted living facility when i was in middle school (so, more than 20 years ago) and he had a Sears & Roebuck catalog from when he was a kid, which meant right around the turn of the century, IIRC. Those of you who just didn't get this part of the ad text, have you simply never seen the originals that this is spoofing? Or did you think that the spoof didn't come across, or didn't do anything to advertise the game?

    I do agree that this is a poor first introduction to the game on the website. It works great, IMHO, as the back-cover copy, but either needs to be much shorter, or come *after* some actual text about the game. Go with what others have said: shorten it so the "real" info begins within the first screenful. Or change the layout so there's a sidebar with descriptive info that starts right near the top, alongside the flavor text.

    - Who is Robert Louis Stevenson, Professor Gibberne, Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, and Jules Gabriel Verne? Why should I care what they have to say?


    Please tell me you're kidding about not recognizing the names (except for Gibberne)?

    continued...
    • CommentAuthorwoodelf
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007
     # 104
    part 2

    edit: Theme is what sells a narrativist game. When the others say it's about things they aren't interested in, it's because they're only seeing things, and not thematic purpose.


    As someone who's read, but not played, Passages, i think that's the real issue: it's *not* a Narrativist game. At least, i don't see any evidence that it is. The mechanics are all about what the character can do, not why they do it, and in a semi-Simulationist (if not detailed/realistic) model. I'd say that Passages is a perfect example of Threefold Dramatism--which means it really isn't any of G, N, or S.

    4) d20: This one is a very sticky issue. I think one of the problems with the game is that it stands between both "worlds", i.e., d20 and story-games. It's really a d20-story-game, i.e., both. I think some of what is happening (and seems to be borne out by some of the comments in this thread) is that the d20 folks think it's "too indie" and the S-G folks don't want to invest much time in an interation of d20. Thoughts on how I can show that the game can be satisfying to both? Is that even possible?

    Note: Sadly, Fae Noir (which I know isn't your game) suffers from the same problem despite my love, love, LOVE for the concept. Fae Noir is my greatest disappointment this year.


    Aside: I, too, passed on Fae Noir when i found out that it was mechanically nothing special, and, more importantly, that the setting wasn't super-detailed. I'm perfectly willing to buy setting-heavy, boring-mechanics games, but not when the setting is more like broad strokes, thus not really saving me all that much work. (n.b.: i didn't look really closely at Fae Noir. I got far enough to determine that the system was, at best, not bad, and that the raw pagecount of setting info was too small for the price, for me. So there could actually be a lot of very cool twists/details on the setting in there that i missed, though conversation about it seems to support my impression.) But i bought Passages, knowing what i was getting, and am pleased with it.

    So, Justin: why haven't more folks who frequent Story Games bought Passages? I think it's because they're not the target market. Now, why haven't folks who like traditional RPGs bought it? That's less obvious to me. I bought it because i love the premise, and am often perfectly happy with traditional mechanics mated to a detailed setting (as opposed to tools for creating a setting, and addressing theme, and so on).

    I think the problem is that Passages stands not "between worlds", but in a space that has been defined out of existence. That is, yes, it's trying to address literary structures, but it has no interest in literary themes, and it, for the most part, addresses literature through channels other than the mechanics. With the possible exception of Universalis, all the "story games" i'm aware of are essentially equal parts Narrativist and Gamist in structure. Specifically, they insist that theme must be addressed, and that theme must be addressed via the mechanics. So, even if your game is designed to address theme, if the mechanics of the game don't do that addressing, most folks won't recognize it as Narrativist. And, like I said, unless i missed it, i don't think Passages is intended to address theme in the Narrativist sense, in the first place.

    Your own words in this thread reinforce that impression for me: Passages is about experiencing/exploring a cool setting. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's OK to have an RPG, even an indie RPG, that isn't Narrativist. But it does mean that JDCorley is probably right: the selling point of Passages isn't the system. So quit trying to sell it on the system, because really all that you've said about the system is what it isn't--which, unfortunately, boils down to "the system doesn't suck", which isn't exactly gonna drive sales. So, like he said, quit talking about the system: those who want the mechanics to be all innovative won't be sold no matter what you say, because they aren't; and those who want traditional D20 System don't need to be told the niggling details of how it differs--it's close enough, i'd think.

    For myself, it's this:

    PassagesBut Passages is so much more than just a new rpg system, it's a fully realized literary campaign setting of the Victorian era. Take the helm of the Nautilus! Cross swords with the Scarlet Pimpernel! Match wits with the devious Professor Moriarty! Anything is possible in the world of Passages.


    "You can do anything!" is rather a red flag for me. My experience with such claims tells me to expect the whole damn thing to collapse into genre incoherence. It suggests a setting collage and players expressing diverse characters without telling me how the game works to achieve thematic coherence.


    Instead, talk more about the setting, and what the characters do. And, unless i misread, or am now misremembering, it's not intended to be about literally entering fictional works that exist within the game setting, a la The Eyre Affair, is it? The basic premise is that those fictional works aren't fictional--they're descriptions of real people, places, and happenings, though perhaps embellished, and the PCs can meet/visit/discover the actual things that are behind the stories. So, if someone kills Captain Nemo, that doesn't change existing copies of Verne's story all across the world--though it might lead to a sequel.

    If I got that correct, you need to clear that up, because too many people are getting the impression that it's a meta-fictional setup like Fforde's works, and will be disappointed when it turns out the game isn't. Or did i miss a metaphysical connection that causes changes in the real events to have greater ramifications than i'm describing? Also, I agree that emphasizing the coolness of Phineas Fogg slaying the Jabberwock, or Queequegg and the Caterpillar sharing a hookah, or whatever, is great. Maybe as a sum-up description you should be saying something like "meet the real people that inspired the greatest Victorian literature", to emphasize that it's not about the texts themselves, it's about the parallel worlds that inspired the texts?

    I am going back to the drawing board armed with a lot of great insight. And I've got something of a new tagline I'm toying with that gets the concept across a little better: "There are twenty faces on the die. Each one tells a story."


    Only one problem i see with that: it's evocative, but not descriptive. That is, since the actual resolution system is a simple linear comparison, looking at differences and giving broad degrees of success (which come in 5-pt increments, IIRC), a given die roll only gives you something like 4 different "stories", in the sense of different results for a given roll. If i read that tagline, i'd be expecting something with the degree of variance of results of, say, the Everway Fortune Deck--that is, distinct qualities of results, not just a range of quantities within the same quality. And i'd be disappointed when i then read the mechanics and found pretty much bog-standard True20. Whereas, i knew what i was getting with Passages, as is, and thus had appropriate expectations (to whit: the mechanics won't impress me, but will give a basic structure and mostly stay out of the way; the cool bits will be elsewhere).
  25.  # 105
    I did find it hard to read, yes, because although "uninjurious to the digestion because of the slow measured absorption of rules and use of a singular icosahedron for resolution." might be perfectly good English, it is so far removed from modern usage that it makes you work to understand what it is actually saying. Having to work to understand text is fine in some instances but in the blurb which is supposed to quickly grab my attention and make me think "YES! I must read more of this" it achieved exactly the opposite, with me thinking "NO, I cannot be bothered with this".
    •  
      CommentAuthorTemple
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007
     # 106
    Posted By: woodelf
    Posted By: TempleWell, technically its not d20, its OGL..


    No, technically itisD20 System, he's just not allowed to tell us. SotC is OGL [and not D20 System].


    Umm.. No. Not the way WotC uses the terms, which is what Im going by for the purpose of this discussion.

    Its not d20 unless it carries the d20 label, you know, the logo thingy? Its OGL if it has d20 mechanics but doesnt have the logo.

    SOtC uses a variation of the open gaming license, but its not "OGL." Only products which use the WotC d20 Open Gaming License are "OGL."
    •  
      CommentAuthorjenskot
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007 edited
     # 107
    Posted By: woodelfPlease tell me you're kidding about not recognizing the names (except for Gibberne)?

    woodelf, I'm not kidding.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAnemone
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007
     # 108
    Wow. I thought that Nat/Woodelf's post was actually very insightful and should be very useful to Justin. By the way, aside from Jennifer Rodgers' art, the back-cover blurb and jacket puffery is what gets me most interested in the game. I'm not a native English speaker either, but I had not trouble understanding any of it -- I thought it was hilarious -- and I knew all name references except for (like Nat) Professor Gibberne. So I'd guess it's not so much an issue of education or language and more of whether the literary world in the game is part of the reader's literary interests.
    • CommentAuthorwoodelf
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007 edited
     # 109
    Posted By: Temple
    Posted By: woodelf
    Posted By: TempleWell, technically its not d20, its OGL..


    No, technically itisD20 System, he's just not allowed to tell us. SotC is OGL [and not D20 System].


    Umm.. No. Not the way WotC uses the terms, which is what Im going by for the purpose of this discussion.


    WotC uses the terms? I've never seen it. That is, I've seen them talk about "D20 System games" all the time--but i've never seen them use "OGL" as a label for a category of game, period. And in the process of not wanting to promote/advertise the similarity between and compatibility with non-D20STL-using RPGs, they've rarely or never, that i've seen, made a distinction between D20 System games that use the license and those that don't, because that would require talking about the perfectly-compatible competitor games that don't use the D20STL, and thus drawing attention to them. The useage you're referring to grew out of producers of D20 System games other than WotC, and useage on various discussion forums (i suspect, but don't know, driven by that useage on the D20STL and WotC OGL lists--i'm pretty sure i saw it there well before i saw it on more general forums), and was cemented by Mongoose's very frustrating decision to co-opt the term and use it as a system label. And if you're going to fall back on WotC useage, it's definitely "D20 System", not "d20".

    Its not d20 unless it carries the d20 label, you know, the logo thingy? Its OGL if it has d20 mechanics but doesnt have the logo.

    SOtC uses a variation of the open gaming license, but its not "OGL." Only products which use the WotC d20 Open Gaming License are "OGL."


    OK, using that terminology, what is the label for something that uses the OGL, and yet isn't D20 System?

    And the D20 System Trademark License is just that--it's a restriction on using a very specific label in the context of trade. I see nothing useful in the consumers differentiating between D20 System games that have the D20 System logo, and D20 System games that don't--Spycraft has the logo, Arcana Unearthed doesn't. You telling me that the former is in any meaningful way more similar to or compatible with D&D than the latter is?

    Look, it's not my fault that WotC chose a stupidly-generic trademark that can be trivially circumvented or confused. I'm not about to confuse conversations by abiding by a restriction that only applies to a very narrow circumstance (commercial trade), especially not one that is relatively meaningless when discussing the contents of the games. There is perfectly good terminology for distinguishing those D20 System games that use the D20STL, and those that don't: "D20STL" or "D20 System-logoed" or "D20-logoed" (if you insist). Leaving "D20 System" to describe games that use, you know, the D20 System. Otherwise, we end up in the linguistic trap of having co-opted the obvious term to describe games that simply use the WotC OGL, and having no useful way to distinguish between those games that are D20 System[-derived] and those that use some other system. I'm just arguing for natural labelling: released under the OGL=="OGL"; uses D20 System=="D20 System"; uses the D20STL (when it's necessary/useful to distinguish from the previous category, which is generally only in the context of licensing and trademarks)=="D20STL".

    And this isn't just me being pedantic--it arises out of some lengthy miscommunications i've observed on various online fora, due very precisely to some people trying to discuss OGL games while others misread it as being about D20 System games that don't carry the D20 System Logo. (Or, less often, due to someone trying to discuss D20 System games while others misread it as being solely about those D20 System games that carry the D20 System logo.)

    In terms of it being germaine to Justin's situation, i'll point out that, despite not carrying the logo, everyone who's commented on the system in this thread has referred to it as "d20", "d20 system", or "tweaked d20 system" or something similar. That's the system, and no amount of trademark handwaving is going to fool those who dislike D20 System, or those who like it. [Though the lack of the trademark might be causing some people who prefer D20 System and are less well versed in RPGs to not look at it.]

    ----

    Posted By: jenskotwoodelf, are you purposely trying to be a dick? Because that is what you are seriously coming off as (to me at least). Justin came here and asked for our unfiltered thoughts in an effort to help him. We posted to help Justin, not to get your snarky commentary on top of those thoughts.

    Posted By: woodelfPlease tell me you're kidding about not recognizing the names (except for Gibberne)?

    Fuck you. I'm sorry that I grew up homeless in a non English speaking 3rd world country where our priority was eating and fighting disease. Seriously, fuck you.


    I really can't tell if you're being serious here (as opposed to using hyperbole), but I'll assume you are. I'm sorry to hear you had it so rough growing up. Seriously. That doesn't sound easy.

    Anyway, I'm sorry i poked a nerve, it honestly never occurred to me that a native English speaker (and you certainly come across as one) would not have heard of Jules Verne or Robert Louis Stevenson or Lewis Carroll [and know his real name]--i would've figured at least one of them was recognizeable to everyone. So i wasn't trying to be a dick, i was just completely flabbergasted. And sorta wondering if you were being a little euphamistic yourself. (i.e., saying "who are these people?" when what you really meant was "why should the consumer care what these people think about your game?") The tone wasn't meant to be insulting, it was meant to be incredulous--you know, the tone i hear every time i tell someone i've never seen any of Lost. Or that i really loved Felicity and think it's a great show, and would've watched Lost right from the beginning if i'd known of the connection at the time.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrenatoram
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007 edited
     # 110
    Posted By: woodelfOr that i really lovedFelicityand think it's a great show, and would've watchedLostright from the beginning if i'd known of the connection at the time.


    Uhm... not to derail too much, but... which connection?

    EDIT: oh, I think I got it; J. J. Abrams, right?
    I thought you meant plot connection :-D
    •  
      CommentAuthorrenatoram
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007
     # 111
    Posted By: woodelfit honestly never occurred to me that a native English speaker (and you certainly come across as one) would not have heard of Jules Verne or Robert Louis Stevenson or Lewis Carroll [and know his real name]


    Maybe you are assuming a bit too much, I don't know. I have been said more than one time that I came across as a native speaker, and I'm from Italy.

    On the other hand, I knew most of those names, and even the nom de plume of the rev. Dodgson, but I am also a bit of a bookworm.

    So, on the third hand ( ^_____- ), no, the real name of Lewis Carrol is not so well known . And adding the middle name to Jules Verne can be confusing to the eye.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjenskot
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007 edited
     # 112
    For me, it's not so much an issue of education or language but an issue of education and language and poverty and privilege. Growing up, it's wasn't an issue of literary interests. When we are spending time trying to figure out where we are going to sleep the next day or take a shower or my dad is starving because he would rather my sister's eat than eat himself, or my mom is crying because she wants me to give her the $5 I was just given as a birthday present... I'm not too concerned with literary anything.

    It's a sore subject because I and others I knew growing up constantly had to drop out of school to help support their families. My mom worked 3 jobs. I dropped out of college for a while to support my family. Honestly, it was a privilege to go to college. I scored in the top 98% in all the English and Math NY city and state elementary + high school standardized tests I've ever taken. And in high school I spoke 4 languages. Growing up my family constantly had people of higher economic status look down on them. Growing up, I was constantly sneered for not having read X book, or watched Y show, or listened to Z song. I'm not kidding when I say I don't recognize certain key literary authors. It's not a measure of intelligence or worth. But I still get people freak out when I tell them I didn't grow up with a TV. That's a privilege. And not one that everyone has.

    That all being said, I should not have blown up on woodelf that way. I could have made my points without resorting to an outpouring of unrestrained emotion. It's been a tough few days and the issues of poverty and privilege are heavy on my mind with hundreds of my family members losing their homes in Greece. And woodelf was good enough to apologize even though he didn't have to and his last post was very respectful. I'm sorry that I lost my temper.
  33.  # 113
    Posted By: John HarperIsn't Passages the game that has "Asian" as a character class? I heard that somewhere and the game went on my mental ignore list. I'd be happy to learn I was mistaken.

    Oh, good heavens no. For starters, there are no classes. More to the point, the chargen section notes that class and ethnicity were important issues during that time. It gives descriptions of the various social classes (intentionally inaccurately called "castes" to distinguish from the rpg mechanic) and ethnicities (or, more accurately, ethnicity groups) and suggests that selecting a class and ethnicity is an important part of describing your character. As a suggestion, players may select a +1 bonus to a skill for their caste and ethnicity. They get to pick which skill and tell why their caste or ethnicity yields the bonus. For example, someone playing an Asian character could give themselves a +1 bonus to their Grapple skill and say that they received rudimentary training in one of the martial arts; or they could take a +1 bonus to Craft Origami; etc.
  34.  # 114
    Thanks for your comments, Nat. There's a lot of food for thought there.
  35.  # 115
    As a data-point, I know the name Lewis Caroll, but not his real name (I vaguely knew it was a pseudonym, but could not have produced his real name). More to the point, why not just say Lewis Carroll? And who is that other guy? More to the point there, why not Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, or H.G. Wells, which are very well recognized, I'd say. Even Burroughs has to be more recognizable.

    Why not pick the names that are most likely to get a response?

    Mike
  36.  # 116
    Posted By: Justin D. JacobsonFor example, someone playing an Asian character could give themselves a +1 bonus to their Grapple skill and say that they received rudimentary training in one of the martial arts; or they could take a +1 bonus to Craft Origami; etc.

    Argh. That's certainly not helping my impression of the game. Thanks for explaining, but I'll pass.
  37.  # 117
    Posted By: John Harper
    Posted By: Justin D. JacobsonFor example, someone playing an Asian character could give themselves a +1 bonus to their Grapple skill and say that they received rudimentary training in one of the martial arts; or they could take a +1 bonus to Craft Origami; etc.

    Argh. That's certainly not helping my impression of the game. Thanks for explaining, but I'll pass.

    Since this is about helping me re-frame my message, mind if I ask why? I recognize the game won't appeal to everyone, but I'm naturally concerned that I've done another poor job of getting the idea across.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJohn Harper
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007 edited
     # 118
    Okay. Here's what I'm thinking:

    As a person who wants to be progressive and inclusive regarding issues of race, sex, religion, etc:

    - "Asian" as a homogeneous ethnic group is ridiculous and meaningless at best or a thinly veiled stereotype at worst. But I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt! I'm not the knee-jerk PC type. So I asked for an explanation.

    - Then you say an "Asian" PC might be good at Martial Arts and Origami, which is sooooo stereotyped, cliche, and borderline racist that I'm just plain shocked. Should "Africans" (ha) be good at Throwing Spears and Voodoo? I realize that the player gets to pick their bonuses, but the fact that your example is that wrong-headed makes me wonder what other artifacts are lurking in your text.

    - I certainly don't think you're a racist, Justin, just to be clear. But your example of what "Asians" might be good at is embarrassing. The idea that "Asians" ought to get some kind of "racial bonus" because they're Asian makes me very sad. I think it's good to seriously think about the essentializing and exotifying of various peoples as presented in fiction and games, and whether that stuff should be continued, regardless of how "genre appropriate" it is.

    As a game designer:

    - Craft Origami? WTF? Is that actually a skill in the game? Do you have paper-folding conflicts? Of course you don't. But you do have the d20 system logic of making any given activity a mechanical skill, regardless of its relevance in play. That's not the type of game design I like to play.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJosh Roby
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007
     # 119
    John, curious: does it change your impression of the mechanics if you were making an Asian character from a victorian novel? Not all the PCs in Passages are out of books, but some are.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJohn Harper
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007 edited
     # 120
    I'm afraid not, no.

    I mean, yes, one could write a game about racism and imperialism and how they relate to the Victorian novel, and include stuff that captured the ignorance and hate of the era, and that could be a powerful and effective addition, even if it was disturbing. Disturbing and uncomfortable can be good.

    If Passages is doing that, I can get behind it. But I very much doubt it, given the response about martial arts and origami. I see same old, same old -- not criticism and reflection.

    If I decide to play Captain Nemo, and the GM asks, "What racial bonuses do you get because you're Asian?" I'm going to give her the stink eye, period.

    (But please let's remember: I'm commenting on my impression of Passages and what has been said here! Not the book. I haven't read it, and I'm not critiquing it. I also assume that Justin is a lovely and thoughtful person, and I don't mean to speak ill of him personally. Just reacting to what I see here and trying to be very honest for Justin's benefit, is all.)
    • CommentAuthorJDCorley
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007
     # 121
    Related question: What if it were player-selected? i.e. "This is my ethnic/racial/cultural background, thus I am assigning my Background Bonus Points to areas A, B, and C."

    And like hell there's no Craft: Origami conflicts in d20 games! If a player says "Hey JDCorley, I'm taking some ranks in Craft: Origami, okay?" I can certainly say "Okay!" and immediately write down a plot involving the intelligence service of Cuttenclip (you remember them from Oz, right?) infiltrating Parliament disguised as budget paperwork, and only origami can defeat 'em.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJohn Harper
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007 edited
     # 122
    Cultural/societal background points to spend? Yep. If I play a Comanche warrior in 1850, you bet I'm gonna want some skills regarding hunting, riding, shooting, and such. That's my role in my society, so I'm good at those things.

    But racial bonus for being "Native"? Huh? What does that even mean? I can't imagine using that at the table with a straight face. My "Native" character can be from dozens of different societies and have hundreds of different roles in the world. So my bonuses could be anything, right? And then why have an ethnic bonus at all? Unless there's something essential about being the ethnicity that I am... and that's where you cross the line, for me. This is the kind of thinking that gives us "Jews are good with money, Chinese people know Kung Fu, African Americans are good at sports..." etc. No thanks.

    One's ethnicity does not determine one's capabilities, persona, potential, or value. Right? Man, I hope we can agree on that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJosh Roby
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2007
     # 123
    Posted By: John HarperMy "Native" character can be from dozens of different societies and have hundreds of different roles in the world. So my bonuses could be anything, right? And then why have an ethnic bonus at all?


    But... John, your character isn't going to be from dozens of different societies. He's going to be from one society, and if it's Comanche, and to you that means he should have some hunting/riding/shooting skills, then you pick those. It seems to me you're balking at what you were suggesting in the prior paragraph.
  44.  # 124
    Okay. I'm not here to defend my impressions against all comers, internet style. Justin asked, I'm answering. If you don't have a problem with ethnic bonuses, it's no worry of mine. I think I made my point clearly and I stand by what I said. There's no contradiction there. If you're seeing one, we have a communication problem, which I don't care to sort out in this thread.
    • CommentAuthorwoodelf
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     # 125
    Posted By: John Harper
    - Then you say an "Asian" PC might be good at Martial Arts and Origami, which is sooooo stereotyped, cliche, and borderline racist that I'm just plain shocked. Should "Africans" (ha) be good at Throwing Spears and Voodoo? I realize that the player gets to pick their bonuses, but the fact that your example is that wrong-headed makes me wonder what other artifacts are lurking in your text.

    - I certainly don't think you're a racist, Justin, just to be clear. But your example of what "Asians" might be good at isembarrassing. The idea that "Asians" ought to get some kind of "racial bonus"because they're Asianmakes me very sad. I think it's good to seriously think about the essentializing and exotifying of various peoples as presented in fiction and games, and whether that stuff should be continued, regardless of how "genre appropriate" it is.


    You did catch that, if you play a white guy, you get a skill bonus for being white, right?

    That is, everyone gets a skill bonus, and they get to declare where it comes from (ethnicity or caste/class), and declare what it is. It's up to the play group to make it either not stereotyping, or highly cliched, as they prefer.
  46.  # 126
    A few things:

    Just for clarity's sake, they're actually called "cultures" -- not ethnicity. I wasn't paying attention to detail in my prior post, and I'm sure that exacerbated the misconception. As for how it's actually present in the book, Nat and Joshua have it just right. From the book:
    The Victorian era was a time of great change around the globe. Amazing things were happening in every culture; international travel was becoming more commonplace. It was, paradoxically, a time of both rising jingoism and the free exchange of ideas. To encourage a sociall diverse game experience which reflects this phenomenon, Passages players select a culture for their characters at creation.

    ...

    The major cultures in the nineteenth century world of Passages are Arab, Asian, easterner, Frontiersman, Native, and Westerner. The descriptions below are not meant to suggest that all such individuals come from the same country, share the same language, hold simila rreligious belief, and so forth. However, they can serve as a good starting point to flesh out a character.


    The mechanical benefits of culture are presented as an optional rule in one of the Moriarty sidebars:
    The Narrator can allow mechanical distinctions among the cultures. For this variant, each player assigns a +1 bonus to a skill or a +2 bonus to a sub-skill and explains how his character's culture ties in to the bonus. For example, Charles might decide that Oliver's London upbringing [Westerner culture] exposed him to the bustling streets of a civilized metropolis; he gives Oliver a +2 bonus on Carouse (Gather Information) checks.


    This same treatment is given to social castes as well. In my example above (Grappling vs. Origami), I was just trying to pick to diametrically opposed types of skills to show the potential variety in using the rule. You can pick whatever skill you want to give the bonus to: a Nepalese with a bonus to Survival, etc. The point is that you get to decide. It seems to me that you were operating from a pretty gross misconception of the actual game text (admittedly exacerbated by my quick reply). If you still have a problem with (and your Nemo comment above makes me think you do), I'd be interested to take that issue to another thread. In fact, I'm happy to shoot you a pdf so you can review the material in full context. As it stands right now, I'm getting the same feeling you'd probably be getting if someone said: "Agon, isn't that the game where, if you want to play a woman, you have to be some ostracized Amazon freak?"

    As to the game design point, Craft is a skill generally, and the player decides what specific area they want to specialize in, e.g., origami, blacksmithing, haberdashery (essentially the same as the D&D skill of the same name). I'll have to disagree with you on your reaction on this point. As JD says, skills are the functional equivalent of kickers. If I'm the Narrator and one of the PCs has Craft Origami, he's telling me that he wants stories that include origami. Yes, I will find a way to make it relevant, e.g., the calling card of Jack the Ripper is a folded swan, wrestling with the Queen of Hearts's playing-card minions in Wonderland, folding Blackbeard's treasure map the proper way so it can be read, etc.

    And, yes, I am lovely and thoughtful. Or so my wife keeps telling me. ;-)
    •  
      CommentAuthorRich Stokes
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007 edited
     # 127
    Posted By: Justin D. JacobsonAs JD says, skills are the functional equivalent of kickers. If I'm the Narrator and one of the PCs has Craft Origami, he's telling me that he wants stories that include origami.


    I am going to start a separate thread about this text.
  48.  # 128
    Thanks for explaining further, Justin. As I said, I wasn't attempting to critique your game book, but rather give an honest reaction to what I had heard about it secondhand and from your comments here. The text you quoted from the book makes me feel better about how the issue is handled in the actual game. Not that my feelings are the issue here, of course. :) I still think that the super-broad cultural groups are not the best idea in the world, but that's not such a major issue.

    From the game design standpoint, I understand where you're coming from, and the skill-flag technique you describe is one that I have used many times in the past in my own play of d20 and loads of other traditional games. I don't find that technique to be especially satisfactory, given much more effective alternatives (IMO). If it works for you, that's great, but I have put in my time playing that way and am not interested in going back to it.
  49.  # 129
    Justin,

    I don't know if you're still looking for data, and I don't have much additional to add really, but here I go vomiting my opinions anyway.

    I was drawn immediately by the Jennifer Rodgers cover and by the figures on it. I picked it up, saw it was d20, and felt my interest drop. I've replicated that experience two or three times since. I should note, though, that I'm a pretty stingy game buyer these days. At Gen Con I only bought 3 games, two of which were ashcans and one was an update of a game I already own. I basically only buy a game if I feel a need to own it, and anything that dampens my enthusiasm is likely to get me not to buy it.
  50.  # 130
    Thanks, Robert. And I'll add, to the others who have mentioned similar experiences, I appreciate the input and, by all means, am not expecting everyone who posts to S-G to run out and by my game just because I publish it. I have a great deal of respect for people with the self-control to not buy games.
    • CommentAuthorasdfff
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007
     # 131
    Justin,

    300+ pages is a shocking amount of effort to put into a d20ish do-everything game about adventures through Victorian literature--Dawning Star is a much more prominent product of your company (I don't know if you are the same author) and despite the maps and 3D renders on the Dawning Star page, I want to guess that the same amount of work went into both products.

    So far, have sales for Passages *outside* of gencon justified the gigantic pagecount beyond what we're used to? The inde booth definitely was not the core audience for this product--this fits more in "small press".

    I say this because on rpgnow you have two [staff] reviews, which simply isn't common...I'm willing to bet that rpgnow sales are higher than either gencon, POD or IPR. Did the attention halo from Dawning Star lead them to review this effort?
    •  
      CommentAuthornoclue
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2007 edited
     # 132
    Posted By: Justin D. JacobsonThe major cultures in the nineteenth century world of Passages are Arab, Asian, easterner, Frontiersman, Native, and Westerner. The descriptions below are not meant to suggest that all such individuals come from the same country, share the same language, hold simila rreligious belief, and so forth. However, they can serve as a good starting point to flesh out a character.



    Justin, this might have been a good point for a sentence or two about how its the nineteenth century literary world that you're talking about. The literary tropes found in Victorian writing do tend to blur distinctions when dealing with various cultures. Since you are going for that feel, I'm guessing your game understandably mirrors some of the conventions of the period in this regard. I think explicitly recognizing this in the text might be a good idea.
  53.  # 133
    Posted By: asdfffJustin,

    300+ pages is a shocking amount of effort to put into a d20ish do-everything game about adventures through Victorian literature--Dawning Star is a much more prominent product of your company (I don't know if you are the same author) and despite the maps and 3D renders on the Dawning Star page, I want to guess that the same amount of work went into both products.

    So far, have sales for Passages *outside* of gencon justified the gigantic pagecount beyond what we're used to? The inde booth definitely was not the core audience for this product--this fits more in "small press".

    I say this because on rpgnow you have two [staff] reviews, which simply isn't common...I'm willing to bet that rpgnow sales are higher than either gencon, POD or IPR. Did the attention halo from Dawning Star lead them to review this effort?

    I'm willing to post some numbers. Over at OBS, Passages sold 23 pdfs in the first month, putting it on par with Fred's DRYH -- pretty good company I'd say. 66 copies overall in the first 7 months--not bad, but not great. Interestingly, I got a very nice bump after Gen Con this year. So, yes, I do think I get some rising-tide effect in the "mainstream" rpg community from Dawning Star and, by extension, Poisoncraft. I think this is particularly true with the reviews. For example, Chris "Crothian" Gath is one of the staff reviewers, and he's from EN World and firmly entrenched in the d20 milieu (though he reviews non-trad stuff as well from time to time).

    This, of course, was my original premise. I think the game stands "between both worlds"--not fully welcome in either. I think that much of the commentary in this thread bears out the truth of that premise from the S-G side of things.
  54.  # 134
    I originally bought the PDF and I have been impressed enough with our playtests to buy the soft cover printing. The game does not break enormous ground but does a very good job bringing together disparate gamers into a single play session. Personally I'm looking for more games like Passages, Spirit of the Century etc. that have enough crunch and enough story to get all my friends together. The only thing I would love to see more out of these games is scalability of the mechanics so that when all my story game buddys are around we scale back and describe more and when my DnD buddys are in on the game we can scale the resolution up a bit.
  55.  # 135
    Hey Justin, I was happy to see this thread as Passages is one of those games that I've heard about, but haven't felt compelled to purchase or research. I'll throw in with all the people that have said Jennifer's art is a big selling point (I have the prints for Jabberwocky and The Invasion hanging on my wall, which is ironic eh?) but the big thing that has kept me as a distant "meh" is that I haven't heard a hook. I'm not saying there aren't any, I just haven't heard one. Like, DitV I hear "Raising stakes and town creation!" and for Polaris I hear "Key phrases!" I haven't read all of the other posts to this thread so maybe potential hooks have gotten mentioned, but I think you need to dig one out of the book and hammer-hammer-hammer on it. If I hear Passages I want to hear a hook shortly after.
  56.  # 136
    Hey, thread-necro. Sweet!

    My prior position hasn't changed in that I've digested alot of great material from this thread and am in the process of rebooting my marketing effort from the website on down.

    To answer your specific question, Bret, my personal opinion about the hook for Passages is spread. The difference between the result of a check and the opposing number (be it a target number or an oppsed roll) is the spread. The spread informs the narrative. The greater the spread, the more spectacular the success or failure. It doesn't sound like much, but it has a dramatic impact on play. Think about when you're playing D&D and, say, the thief is trying to pick the lock on the treasure chest. In D&D, his roll is high enough, the DM says: "OK, you open the lock" or some such. If the roll fails, the DM says: "You are unable to open the lock." When we add spread to the mix, it subliminally forces the participants to flesh out the narrative with greater detail. So, Topper Baines, Gentleman Thief, sets at the lock to Dr. Jekyll's steamer. The player succeeds but the spread is only 1 or 2; this cues the participants that success was tip-of-the-fingers close. The Narrator says: "Your pick catches, seems to jam for a moment, before the final pin slides back into place." If the spread is, say, 15, the Narrator says: "Before the others can turn their gaze to see your work, the lock falls open without so much as a whisper of a protest from the metal." Or, indeed, I encourage the player to narrate great successes (as I'll be noting in my upcoming Narrator's Companion).

    Or, as I'm presently toying with as a tagline: "The die has 20 faces--each one tells a story."

    I also hear people liking the plot point system. It doesn't seem like much to this crowd, but for d20 diehards, it's a real eye-opener.
    • CommentAuthorJDCorley
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2007
     # 137
    That's a great catchphrase!
  58.  # 138
    I like it, too. Definitely use it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHituro
    • CommentTimeOct 6th 2007
     # 139
    I myself am in the general boat of "no interest because I never heard of it" but a quick glance at the website tells me I like the sense of humor a lot! I love the back blurb and the fake quotes, I knew where you were coming from right away.

    A very similar design of text is used for advertising GURPS Goblins, which is aiming at another bit of the same world (its the literary view of the gutter though) and it works just fine there.

    I would just take the back cover text, change the font to something suitable for a victorian handbill and put it on a graphic background, box it out to the right and put a more normal description of the game in the center spot. That way you keep the funny text, but clearly marked out as a victorian style advert, *and* provide some more sensible text.

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