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Play Advice: [TSOY] Monsters Not Allowed!

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  1.  # 1
    I keep putting monsters into my TSOY games. I know they can fall flat, but the color demands them. How do I convert these monsters into NPCs with monster skins? What can you do to take disturbed, alien minds and make them work in TSOY?

    If my question doesn't make sense, help me fish out what it is I'm looking for. I'm having trouble articulating my issues.

    AP Example:
    I ran a Dark*Matter scenario with TSOY last weekend. It has an Ice Demon in it. I (subconsciously?) made it so that the only real motivation the demon had was to eliminate the PCs. How do I create motivations for alien or weird creatures that make sense and don't involve pushing towards a TPK (total party kill)?
  2.  # 2
    Um, give the monster Keys?

    Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorJoe Murphy
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2007
     # 3
    If the group can't BDTP on an enemy, there's probably something weird going on, because that's one of the more striking ways the players can say 'we want more of this'. The players are asking for more detail.

    So if a monster/entity/guy can't be resolved in multiple ways, it'll probably be less fun than an enemy who can.

    There's a good chance that the monsters from the Dark*Matter setting won't suit the TSOY mechanics. The TSOY system isn't especially fun when i comes to just killing. It's too easy, for a start. So you might need to take some of the favor of a monster and revise their motives entirely. So Keys, as mentioned above. Real keys, not just 'Key of Murdering'.

    (Does the color demand the players fight monsters? Or just that they exist?)
  4.  # 4
    Thanks for asking this. I've been thinking about this a lot for my TSOY gaming too.

    Monsters get interesting when they interact through motivations that the players can understand.

    This is little more than a laundry list, but here's what's on my monster-building brainstorming sheet:


    • The Phantom of the Opera is a monster. Why? Because he seek fulfillment in a monstrous way.

    • Frankenstein is a person. Why? Because the things he wants are things people want.

    • Cthulu isn't a monster. The crazy scientist who wants to raise him from the deeps just to see what color his tentacles are; he's the monster.

    • Are zombies monsters? I don't think they are. So why are there so many zombie stories?M

    • In World War Z, people are more monstrous than zombies.



    BTW, Joe, that's a great observation about BDTP. I think you may be hitting the nail on the head there.
  5.  # 5
    Posted By: Joe MurphyIf the group can't BDTP on an enemy, there's probably something weird going on, because that's one of the more striking ways the players can say 'we want more of this'. The players are asking for more detail.

    So if a monster/entity/guy can't be resolved in multiple ways, it'll probably be less fun than an enemy whocan.

    There's a good chance that the monsters from the Dark*Matter setting won't suit the TSOY mechanics. The TSOY system isn't especially fun when i comes to just killing. It's too easy, for a start. So you might need to take some of the favor of a monster and revise their motives entirely. So Keys, as mentioned above. Real keys, not just 'Key of Murdering'.

    (Does the color demand the players fight monsters? Or just that they exist?)


    The color demands that they exist. I'm not stopping BDtP, I'm encouraging it. I'm just noting that 'Faster! Kill kill!' is a horrible motivation for NPCs in TSOY.

    Posted By: tony dowlerThis is little more than a laundry list, but here's what's on my monster-building brainstorming sheet:


    So, you're saying that instead of starting with the alien desire and trying to map it to a real world desire, I should maybe start with a real world desire and wrap the alien-ness about it? That's something to think about.
  6.  # 6
    Posted By: Mark CauseyHow do I create motivations for alien or weird creatures that make sense and don't involve pushing towards a TPK (total party kill)?


    There might be another issue lurking in here too. Tell me if I'm on the right track. I'm struggling with a similar issue around having gods turn up in games. I picked up on this from Nine Worlds, where confrontations with gods who massively outclass you is mechanically possible. I'm trying to understand how you have an adversary who potentially outclasses the PCs by an order of magnitude without it being a TPK or the equivalent. Is that what you're thinking about here?
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      CommentAuthorMikeRM
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2007
     # 7
    Posted By: tony dowlerI'm trying to understand how you have an adversary who potentially outclasses the PCs by an order of magnitude without it being a TPK or the equivalent.


    Have them eat the elephant a spoonful at a time. In other words, defeating the adversary is the ultimate goal, but the immediate goal is to gather the resources, allies, etc. and develop the teamwork that you will need to achieve that ultimate goal. Then, when they show up and confront the adversary, they aren't outclassed.
  8.  # 8
    I'm seeing two answers here. The big, supernatural, and alien creature can be:

    1) Furniture. NPCs around it are the real things to interact with and defeat. The supernatural acts as special effects when necessary.

    2) NPC on a large scale with human sized motivations. NPCs acting in concert with it just make it that much larger.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJoe Murphy
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2007
     # 9
    Furniture might be a little disparaging. Look at the ship at the end of Close Encounters, various monsters (like the leech guy, lots of the aliens) in the X-Files, or the Reavers in Firefly. None of them are worth statting up. But they do provide a source for conflict (and scares).

    Can you write us up a barebones monsters from the setting or that would be suited to the setting? Just text, don't worry about traits.
  10.  # 10
    My personal experience running TSOY is that it's very hard to stat up an NPC that the player-characters can't annihilate if they decide to. That is beautifully in keeping with a "narrativist" game where the moral dilemma of what course of action to take is more important than the tactics of implementing that course of action, but it makes it hard to come up with Big Boss Villains, which I sometimes miss.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMark Causey
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2007 edited
     # 11
    I don't mind them (the NPCs) getting obliterated. I just want the NPCs to make the players make real choices and not meaningless ones on the railroad to beating the big bad evil guy. Killing the cult leader should be a choice that's as valid as letting the demon escape.
  12.  # 12
    Take the 'no monsters' thing at it's face value. Don't bring in monsters. Bring in NPCs. NPCs who just happen to be in the market for doing evil things. NPCs who just happen to be demons trapped in shiny glass baubles.

    Once you think of the demon as an NPC instead of as a monster, then it becomes easier to figure out what they want. And once you know what they want they become much more interesting.

    If that doesn't work, then I suggest asking yourself this: "What horrible things would this monster be up to if the PCs weren't around?" Then you have their motivation.
    • CommentAuthoralejandro
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2007
     # 13
    Has anyone ever considered giving an npc/monster a rating higher then 4?
  14.  # 14
    Mark: depending on the monsters you have in mind, TSOY offers different alternatives. Some "monsters"- such as, say, a bugbear, are really no more than animals. There's a section for statting up "beasts", and they don't need motivations beyond things like "defend territory" and "survive." They wouldn't necessarily fight to the death, so you just need to decide where their interests lie- one stout jab to the beak might send that bugbear running.

    Assuming you want more intelligent monsters, then- as Eric and others here are saying- you just treat them as NPCs. They don't need Keys exactly (why bother with experience?) but they would have motivations. A pack of goblins in D&D have basic wants- survival, power, treasure, etc. It's not complicated, but it also doesn't necessitate a TPK either. The characters can use those basic wants to trick them, scare them, ore even negotiate with them.

    For the more devastating monsters- like Cthulu, or Reavers in Firefly- you just treat them as window dressing, or an environmental hazard. Your point about "furniture" is accurate- some fights are too big, and you need to find another way around. When I ran a TSOY FIrefly game, it was explicit that an encounter with Reavers was an un-winnable fight- you either ran or you died. Same with Cthulu. Some friends of mine were playing a Marvel-themed Champions game and went up against Galactus. They went in assuming it was going to be a boss-fight, and found out that you don't fight Galactus. You're just beneath his notice, and if you're lucky, you can encourage him to go somewhere else.

    In any case, I wouldn't be afraid to stat up some fairly powerful NPCs, if you need strong, recurring villians. One of the best recurring NPCs in our current game has a Grand Master in Scrapping, three secrets, and a 10 point Vigor pool. And a really nice powdered wig.
    •  
      CommentAuthoroliof
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2007
     # 15
    Alejandro: Ability Ratings > 4 are just breaking the game. It's easier to give monstrous opponents pool sizes in the mid-thirties, so they can self heal A LOT of damage. If they need to resist a whole group BDTP, you'd need to go into the sixties. But that goes right into the venue of saying "This fight can't be won." So, I think Steve's ideas work better than mine.

    Somehow I'm reminded of someone saying "I attack the darkness!" – it's just not the right mode of engagement. Actually, I like the furniture analogy – I'd say "tool". Like a grenade or a bomb, or an automatically firing gun emplacement. In the end, it's only barely interesting to defuse the grenade or bomb or switch off the autofire mechanism – the interesting part is to find out who put them in your way and go to lengths to stop them from doing so again in the future; or to do it in time so the hostages/comrades/etc. can get away.
  16.  # 16
    I think I have figured out what I needed to figure out. Thank you, everyone!
  17.  # 17
    Posted By: Mark CauseyI think I have figured out what I needed to figure out. Thank you, everyone!


    Jeez, why didn't I write it down, then?
  18.  # 18
    Posted By: Steve SegedyOne of the best recurring NPCs in our current game has a Grand Master in Scrapping, three secrets, and a 10 point Vigor pool. And a really nice powdered wig.


    Steve, did the NPC start out this tough? How do you gauge an NPC to being too powerful? Or does such a thing not exist?
  19.  # 19
    I don't think he did, actually- in that game we were trading around the GM role from session to session, and I think he grew in strength with each GM, due to his popularity. If I recall correctly, Monroe (for that was the NPCs name) first appeared with 3 Secrets (all intended to make him a super-strong "brick" opponent) and Scrapping at Adept, with a few points in his Vigor. He was introduced as a challenge for a single PC, and served well at that, kicking that character all over the place. Later he was brought back to face several of the PCs at once, with some minions at his side, so his Vigor got bumped up. And then at some point he became a better fighter, probably to continue being a challenge to PCs that had improved over time.

    The point here is really that a strong opponent and harsh stakes shouldn't be a problem, as long as it's a conflict that matters to the players and helps support their story. As a GM, providing real risks for the PCs helps push player creativity. When Monroe first appeared, he quickly handed out a lot of Harm (as regular conflict stakes) to the PC, demonstrating to the player that a one-on-one fight might not be possible to win. This prompted the player to run like a rabbit and use other skills to trick him into a situation where he could win (in this case, leading him into a hail of bullets).
  20.  # 20
    I'm thinking the point I was trying to formalize before is that good, story-driving NPCs must be thought of outside of the context of the PCs and must have defined goals or drives so that they exist outside the vacuum and therefore have things to worry about and fight over. They shouldn't be defined in terms of singular goals that involve the PCs.

    Let me propose some good and bad ones and everyone can comment!

    The PCs have just arrived on an island with amazing curative powers derived from something sinister.

    Good NPC drive:
    I must find a cure for my mother's illness. I will do what is necessary to save my mother.
    Bad NPC drive:
    I will stop the PCs from leaving the island with any taboo knowledge.
  21.  # 21
    In the context of "No Monsters" what I read is, "Don't face the characters with a problem that's external to their keys." If, in fact, the monster plays into their keys, I say go for it.

    So, Cthulhu is bad if you present him like, "There's Cthulhu, and he's going to kill you, what do you do about it?" Uh... trigger my "Key of Staying Alive?" But if Cthulhu is presented like, "He's about to stomp on your Mother with one foot, and your Lover with his other foot, who do you save?" Then he's just another part of good situation creation.

    What's best is when the monster is like the one from Hellraiser, and it comes to you not to destroy you, but to corrupt you. Then they're an NPC, in that they're going to interact with keys as you'd expect any NPC to do.

    Mike
  22.  # 22
    That makes a lot of sense, too. I guess the problem stems all the way back to the GM advice in the book. "Create your stories from the Keys of the PCs and you should have no problem". If I make a monster as a beast or an NPC but can't somehow justify their interaction with the Keys, then it will probably fall flat.

    Agreed?
  23.  # 23
    Well, again, an "environmental hazard" type of opponent can challenge players simply by complicating whatever they're doing, which is probably Key related. So players trying to get off an island with taboo knowledge might find it difficult because of the raging storm (in the form of an NPC) that threatens to destroy the boats (conflict of a Resist skills, perhaps). This hinders the character with the Key of Fraternity, who's trying to get his companion away safely, and it also gets in the way of the guy with Key of the Mission (steal taboo knowledge). In this case, the "monster" is a challenge, a hurdle to overcome that makes things exciting, but not directly the focus of a Key.

    Am I being helpful, or just repetitive?

    I wish I was coming to Nerdly, so we could put all this to the test!
  24.  # 24
    Steve: I'll find somebody to test this out with. I'd love to hammer it out; I think it is a deep failing of mine in terms of GMing skills.
  25.  # 25
    Here's the key... pun intended...

    Start with the key, and work you way to the monster, environmental hazard, or NPC. So... we get a character with the Key of Greed. We think, how can I work with that? I'll have a treasure for him to go get, OK. And it'll be on an island with a storm around it, and guarded by a monster. Now these elements are in play to highlight the character's greed, should he choose to face these things.

    So, yeah, if you make the monster first, you may forget to retroactively figure out how it locks in with some keys. Start with the keys, and that can't happen.

    Mike
    • CommentAuthorDInDenver
    • CommentTimeMay 6th 2008
     # 26
    Hi!
    I think if you want monsters, it is do-able, even manageable. And, you might want to try one of two possible approaches:
    1) Monster is an Ability/Secret of a more human-like character. Dr Frankenstein makes a monster and now has a secret called Beast of Rage that is triggered by spending a point of vigor and does X (whatever you feel Frankenstein does)
    2) The alien intelligence can be achieved by combining keys in a non-intuitive way. Like Key of Compassion and Key of Bloodlust. Tell me that this character is not going to act in an alien way. The closest to human you get is a crusader and many people feel that the crusaders were monsters...
    Let me know what you decide to do and how it goes, I have a game of TSOY coming up soon and I might try that out if you can get it to work...
    Any ways, good luck!
    Dave M

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