So there're a couple of people who hung out with me at Gen Con who know what I'm about to say. I want to preface this by saying I have not read the game. I feel like a hectoring mom in the 1980s: I don't know much about the game but I know it makes me uneasy. Ok, so, that disclaimer out of the way:

My understanding is that all characters in Dirty Secrets are split into two groups, white and non-white. I also understand that they are several other dimensions that they're split along. However, this white/non-white thing bothers the fuck out of me. In modern American race relations, there are many more shades of gray than this seems to intimate. Off the top of my head, there were recently (and still may be) serious tensions in Los Angeles between black and Latino gangs.

So there are two parts to my reactions here. One is fully legitimate I feel, and the other is potentially illegitimate. I'll start with the worst, first.

I hear "white and non white" and I get irritable. Because I'm white, however, I find myself in great suspicion of my reaction. I get annoyed at myself and investigate why I'm irritable. I reflect and decide that it makes me feel like I'm probably going to be lectured to, patronized. I then think that it's unfair of me to leap to that conclusion but I cannot think of another reason why things would be so simplified.

That leads to the what-I-think-is-legitimate concern, which I mentioned above. If the game is in part about race relations (and I think putting something like this white/non-white thing in there means it is), it seems irresponsible to me to simplify things so much.

What do you think? I am willing to be disabused. I'm wondering also if anyone else is bothered.

Posted By: Jason MorningstarI think you should read the game before talking about it.

Of course that's good advice. However, what if I think it's unlikely I'll play it? Should I buy a game I'm not going to play? What I'd like is for someone who has it, has read it, or has played it, to tell me their take on this issue. I'm putting it out there pretty clearly that I'm not fit to judge, so I'd like to see what people's perspectives are on this issue.

I'm not trying to start shit or crap on Seth. I promise.

Robert, it's deliberate over-simplification to make a point. The point is: in that world, people are seen as either white or non-white.

Like Jason says, read before judging. It's cleverly done.

Graham

Thanks, Seth. I was concerned about this coming out wrong and at the very least I feel sure you know where I'm coming from.

Now that you mention the US census thing, I remember hearing about that. My question (when you have the chance) would then be why is the white/non-white thing there at all? Is it as Graham says, because it reflects how the world sees that character?

Andy's recollection of the broader classifications is correct, and it is a highly accurate set of classifications for the John McDonald/Ross MacDonald/Dashiell Hammett/Mickey Spillane sort of mysteries that the game is based on.

One of the suggestions I made after playtest was that for certain communities, a different set of racial classifications would be appropriate. In Tucson, I would do White/Latino/Other as the most natural split, but if it was Tucson twenty years ago instead of last week, it would be just White/Other. If you were working on Tony Hillerman novels it would be stupid to not have a Native classification, and the economic classification in Dick Francis novels should differentiate between Nouveau Riche and Old Money.

It's a definition of the shorthand social realities described in the source material, not a prescription. If it makes you uncomfortable, the source material will make you scream at the top of your lungs and start sobbing.

Just to declare my hard-boiled crime credentials, I have often been heard to say that The Wire is the best thing ever committed to film.

Posted By: JDCorleyOne of the suggestions I made after playtest was that for certain communities, a different set of racial classifications would be appropriate. In Tucson, I would do White/Latino/Other as the most natural split, but if it was Tucson twenty years ago instead of last week, it would be just White/Other. If you were working on Tony Hillerman novels it would be stupid to not have a Native classification, and the economic classification in Dick Francis novels should differentiate between Nouveau Riche and Old Money.

I actually note this in the Designers' Notes, especially after having received playtest feedback from a group in England and a group in Switzerland. For that matter, "illegal immigrant" has shown up as a legal status in a few games from people who live near international borders. (This one might make it into a revised edition.)

So, I'm all in favor of customizing the Demographic chart to fit your specific situation, with a couple of caveats.

First, playtest has shown that the group must have a limited selection of Demographics. Don't let people just make stuff up. Put together your list before play, and then stick to it religiously.

Second, don't try to determine in advance what issues you'll address. I've found that our games end up revolving around one or two Demographic categories, but I could never have predicted which one at the beginning of the game. One game, Age was the important one. (The story focused on three generations of a Chinese family. The grandmother has emigrated when the mother was around 8. The generation and culture gaps were at the heart of what that game was about, and Age provided the necessary generational stress.) Instead, simply establish a Demographic list that would allow you to pigeon-hole someone using the categories that are in use in your home town. I happen to think that the default list works out quite well for most of the United States, but someone else may disagree. That's cool.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Damnit Seth.

I have no more damn money. Stop posting things that are forcing me to buy your game.

;)

Oh yeah, one more thing.

Posted By: Robert BohlI hear "white and non white" and I get irritable. Because I'm white, however, I find myself in great suspicion of my reaction. I get annoyed at myself and investigate why I'm irritable. I reflect and decide that it makes me feel like I'm probably going to be lectured to, patronized. I then think that it's unfair of me to leap to that conclusion but I cannot think of another reason why things would be so simplified.

Let me assure you that this is not the case. The game is not about lecturing people on why they should feel white guilt or anything like that. I briefly discuss the general issue of abuse of power (as in, one paragraph) in the Designer's Notes, but I'm pretty sure that this is the only formal discussion of the matter in the text. Rather, this is something that is knit into the game to draw out reactions from players. Maybe they seize onto it and use it; maybe it's simply background color. I'm just trying to provide the tools to allow players to ask some questions of themselves and each other, while they tell a rockin' crime story.

Does this address your concern, Robert? I'll do my best to answer any further questions that you have.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Posted By: Great Wolf
Does this address your concern, Robert? I'll do my best to answer any further questions that you have.

I think it does the best that can be possibly done to answer my questions (if that's not too convoluted a sentence). I have a feeling I'd have to try out the game at this point to see if my concerns are entirely unwarranted but I'm grateful to have your perspective and to know that you were conscious to these things when designing the game.

Posted By: Robert BohlJust to declare my hard-boiled crime credentials, I have often been heard to say that The Wire is the best thing ever committed to film.

Which is why I think your objection is bunk, man.

Imagine saying to the creators of The Wire, "Hey, you need to make sure the gang scene in Baltimore is ethnically diverse and represented in a way that's politically correct, or I'm going to decide that your drama isn't worth looking at due to that point alone."

Now, substitute "Dirty Secrets" for "The Wire" in the above and consider how close that is to your message, here.

I have a small frustration that this reaction goes hand in hand with entertainment needing to be sanitized and thus mediocritized. In Dirty Secrets, the stuff you're reacting to seems to be there with an agenda of verisimilitude, not prejudice. Ditto The Wire, right?

My personal take-away from this thread is that I need to see The Wire. It's been added to my NetFlix queue.

That's been an interesting side effect of the Dirty Secrets project: I keep getting media recommendations. At GenCon, the recommendation was Veronica Mars, which has turned out to be surprisingly good. (Season 2 has been good so far, but Season 1 was great.) And now The Wire.

So, I figure I'm ahead.

Thanks, folks!

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

I understand Robert's concern. I shared it too at an earlier point; it can make the difference between "cool game!" and "I'm not giving money to this." And since you can't read in detail to form your own view without buying, it's very helpful to have the opinions of those who have read and played it.

Forget out there in the world, we're talking about a genre of fiction. It's important to the genre that things be easily reduced to stylized categories - either as social criticism (for example, from 1900-1930 or so, divorce laws were such a big target and plot issue of mysteries that in 1926 Bobert Rohl posted to the Telegraphnet that "I AM HIGHLY CONCERNED RE DIVISION OF PERSONS INTO EXCLUSIVE MARRIED UNMARRIED WIDOWED AND DIVORCED CATEGORIES STOP") or, yes, as racial stereotyping (there is a whole chapter of 'Gun in Cheek', which details "alternative" (aka lousy) mystery classics called "C-H-I-N-K-S!" that is an educational read on the subject of race stereotyping and 'Yellow Peril' fiction.) Hell, the decision to make a character male or female is incredibly different if you are talking about a Stephanie Plum-esque novel or a Harry Bosch-esque novel or an Ed McBain-esque novel.

Custom (but yes, still limited) demographics is a great add-on to Dirty Secrets, but what you've got is not in any way bad.

Another interesting thing to look at with Dirty Secrets, is to consider the role of say European immigrants historically and when they cross over from being, say,"Irish" to being white, or folks like Jews who shift depending on the local conditions and the era. Who gets to cross over, who doesn't? Who can pass, and who can't?

To be honest, I bought the game BECAUSE the chart on the back made a strong political statement by having those categories of white vs. non-white citizens as a core feature. As a simplification, it does something interesting- it points to the centrality of white privilege in our society.

I really enjoyed playtetsing and later playing Dirty Secrets. The chart in question is very impactful!

That being said, I think I understand what Rob is referencing in regards to the Wire (my favorite show!). In season 2, they pretty much blatantly say that the polish people are the black people that season. It's complicated. I'm considered white in NY but considered non-white in many other places in the world. Sometimes white / non-white becomes an economic issue. In other cases, often depending on how black you are, no matter how well off you are, you can't break those barriers.

Although I do think the issue is complicated, I like how Seth went with the direct approach. It may not be the whole picture, but sometimes you have to zoom in to get a specific message across or catch people's attention. I also really like some of the house rule options mentioned in this thread.

I can see how if you don't believe in white privilege the procedure isn't going to work for you. You're totally right that Seth could lose some potential customers by making a statement with his rules.

Posted By: scottdunphy(not a lot of race issues, historically)

You mean other than the betrayal and genocide of the Cheyenne and Arapaho, right?

Posted By: scottdunphyColorado (not a lot of race issues, historically)

O.O <---- top of my face














\_/ <-------- bottom of my jaw

Hey, Scott. Thanks for your comments. I don't have time to reply right now, but I will.

Hey, everyone else. The man was expressing a legitimate concern in a polite, respectful way. Ease up, okay? Thanks!

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

I'll second Scalped as great reading for Dirty Secrets players - each of the characters has really got some great issues/secrets that are being teased out. It's one of the best comics being written today.

I'm looking forward to Dirty Secrets at midnight at Dreamation.

I do recognize white privilege but can be counted among those that aren't sure the race demographics part of the game will add all that much to the game/genre emulation. But I haven't played it yet. :)

Here goes!

First, Scott, thanks for playing the game. I’m glad that you enjoyed it and that it was a positive experience for you.

Now to address your concern.

First, you need to have some way to sort the Characters. This is purely for administrative purposes. Early on in playtest, we noticed that there were a lot of pieces of paper flying around. You need to be able to view the gamestate all at once; otherwise, the players become confused trying to keep track of what Characters are available and who they are.

I don’t like games with lots of administrative details required to play. So I was looking for ways to make the administrative handling part of the game. One of my core playtesters (i.e. my wife) suggested this sorting procedure, and we were off to the races.

Let's talk about white privilege!

Actually, let's not. Instead, let's talk about me for a moment.

Just to give my bona fides. I'm a half-Swedish, half-Hispanic, half-Jewish mutt. I'm a conservative Christian. Personally, religion does way more to shape my view of the world than race. I'm politically conservative, but only when that syncs up with being a Christian.

In other words, I don't fall into the camp of people normally associated with concern about "white privilege".

At the same time, I acknowledge that racial divisions do indeed exist. I don't even mean that there are necessarily power imbalances. However, being white is the baseline in this culture. Being of another race is a deviation from the norm. Please note: there's no value judgment here. I'm just saying that, for most Americans, if I start describing someone, the mental picture is of a white person unless I specify a different race.

Now, I do also assert that there are power struggles in this society along various lines, including race. Again, no value judgments here. I'm just taking a look out at the world and reporting what I see.

At this point, I'll allow myself a slightly snarky comment. Race seems to be the hot button here. I've yet to hear anyone object to singling out cops, or rich people. I wonder why that is?

Snarkiness off.

But let's say that it doesn't work that way. Well, a lot of people seem to think that it does. So, even if it's false, the perception of this division drives a lot of the strife in our society today. And, whether real or perceived, it can be a great engine to drive a story.

Honestly, the whole thing is designed to provoke a reaction from the players to the Characters in the game. The chart on the back of the book tells you where society pigeon-holes these Characters. Doesn't mean that you have to. In fact, you probably shouldn't. But the chart provides the social context within which you are working.

This is a good time to touch on this:

Posted By: nemomemeI do recognize white privilege but can be counted among those that aren't sure the race demographics part of the game will add all that much to the game/genre emulation. But I haven't played it yet. :)

Dirty Secrets isn't really about genre emulation. That's my dirty secret. Rather, it's my attempt to bring the sensibility of a certain genre to life while stripping away the conventions that have cluttered it up. I tried to do something similar with high fantasy in my previous game Legends of Alyria. We can argue about whether or not I succeeded, but those were my goals.

I view detective noir as being about public justice being levied on hidden sins.

Not crimes; sins. As I've noted elsewhere, Dogs in the Vineyard is a religiously themed noir game. Dirty Secrets is about the sins of the Characters.

So, what drives the Characters to commit sins? Pride and greed, pretty much.

But that means that you're taking from someone else, using power to gain what you desire. And what forms of power are available to you to abuse?

Thus the Demographics.

In my experience, a given game of Dirty Secrets ends up being "about" one of the Demographics. There's no way to know which one at the beginning of the game; finding out is part of the joy of play. Everything else tends to fade into the background of simple characterization.

You'll have to trust me on this. I have indeed seen it arise in my own playtests, and I've seen it in the various AP reports that have come back to me. Just don't think about it in play, and see what happens naturally. You may be surprised.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Posted By: chearnsOne of the things the race and class split around the board did for our game was add diversity. We had a lot more non-white characters than usual in our game. Kind of like how if you have a whole chapter on combat rules you'll likely get combat in the game as a result, well, having all that area devoted to non-white characters meant we created non-white characters.

I think you can get that from the race demographic and the list of choices available. I think that's what my group was keying off of rather than White / Non-White on the board.

Posted By: LinnaeusI have no experience trying to do this in the context of Dirty Secrets, but I would think the best plan might be to play a quick 3 or 4 dice per player game of straight-up Liar's Dice as part of the rules tutorial might be a good idea. It should take 10-15 minutes, including rules explanation, and it wouldn't get tangled up in the rest of the system that way. As an added bonus, Liar's Dice is a pretty decent icebreaker, too. You may even want to start the session that way (with an explanation of why you are doing so).

Actually that was one of the lessons learned during our trial run. Normally I don't like to explain rules or have rules explained to me during a convention game; I'd rather learn during play. For most games that works, but for the Lair's Dice mechanic the players need to understand it well enough to make decisions on bidding and calling. So I need to teach it at the start.

I was just thinking of demoing it with one player, but your idea is better and I'm going with that. Thanks!