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    • CommentAuthorJesse
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2008
     # 1
    So my submission to the Play This w/ That Challenge was Dirty Secrets and I got back Grey Ranks. I admit at first I was a little disappointed in that I hoped I get something kind of weird. But the more I thought about it the more excited I got as this had the potential to be a very powerful combination. I jumped on this ASAP and played the game on Saturday.

    Because this was not a design competition I wanted to make as few changes to the core Dirty Secrets rules as possible. Obviously, the your town, last week setting went out the window. I wanted to encourage Violence for obvious reasons so I added the rule that when the Authority blocks with a Violence scene they can refresh one die (as it turned out this was irrelevant because people only proposed Violence scenes when they happened to have five dice).

    The more important changes were in the demographics. Sex, Age, and Social Class remained the same. However Race and Legal Status were as follows.

    Race: German, Russian, Polish – Non-Jewish, Polish-Jewish.
    Legal Status: Home Army, Grey Rank, People’s Army, SS, Other Military, Government Official, and Citizen.

    Note: I originally had Red Army in here but the group thought they weren’t very relevant and ended up replacing it with the People’s Army which worked REALLY well.

    Dirty Secrets involves a step where you decide if you’re going to allow or disallow characters who are minors. Disallowing minors seemed to defeat the purpose of playing Grey Ranks. So I decided that the minimum age of a Character is 15 and anyone under 18 had to either be a Citizen or a Grey Rank.

    I mandated that the Investigator be a Grey Rank.

    Another big change I made was the way the demographics were laid out around the game board. At the top I replaced all the law enforcement agencies with Grey Ranks and Home Army. I replaced all the White Rich/Middle-Class/Poor with Germen Military/Government/Citizen. I replaced all the Non-White Rich/Middle-Class/Poor with Non-German Military/Government/Citizens. I eliminated both the Ex-Con entries and simply put Jews on the bottom.

    I was going to leave the Crimes unchanged but Will had some interesting ideas. At first he suggested three different alternatives, Profiteering, Collaboration and one other I can’t remember. The group sort of jumped at Collaboration so we replaced Blackmail with Collaboration. Theft and Murder stayed.

    The Investigator turned out to be 15-year old Stanislaw, Grey Rank Name: “Grom”. He was played by Colin.

    The initial situation was as follows. Lidia, a member of the People’s Army puts much pressure on Konrad, a Jew in hiding, to join up and fight for the cause. Lidia gets much sympathy and support from her Russian boyfriend Branislov who lives in the same building as Konrad. Konrad has taken under his wing a young orphan girl named Ludweka and tries to keep her out of harms way as well. Recently a religious artifact (a small scroll) identifying Konrad as a Jew has been stolen and Konrad believes Lidia is responsible.
    • CommentAuthorJesse
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2008
     # 2
    Because I was teaching the game I took first Authority. For the opening sequence I narrated how young Stanislaw over hears Lidia complaining to Branislov that the “coward” Konrad came around accusing her of stealing his scroll. I then immediately rolled straight into a Violence sequence in which I created a new Character, a German SS officer named Carston. Carston was attempting to haul Konrad and Ludweka away. But in the end the Violence was minor and the SS officer was chased off with minor injury.

    Authority passed to Will and we got our first conflict that I think setup the entire (really sad) theme of the game. Stanislaw wanted to convince Konrad that he needed stand up and join the fight. He succeeded and added that Ludweka wanted to join the Grey Ranks.

    Colin wanted to take the Revelation mechanics out for a spin and low behold on the walk to military headquarters Ludweka reveals that Carston is her uncle whom she thought was dead.

    At the military encampment Santislaw gets into his first (of many) conflicts with Lidia who wants sole jurisdiction over looking into this mysterious SS agent. She wins and Stanislaw goes back to his Grey Rank duties. Patrick really set the tone for Lidia in this scene to the point that people kept wanting him to play Lidia when he wasn’t the Authority. Most of us came to really not like Lidia I think.

    Authority passes to Laura who proceeds introduce the most brutal element of the whole game. She narrates that Stanislaw is out with his cousin and fellow Grey Rank “Zeta” and they’ve been sent to check up on Ludweka who has not returned from her first mission of delivering some important documents. They arrive to find that she’s been brutally tortured and killed and her documents have been stolen.

    At this point we have all three Crimes for our novella in play: The Theft of Konrad’s scroll, A Collaboration against Konrad (i.e someone leaking information that gets him in trouble), and finally the Murder of Ludweka. Actually at this point we knew the Perpetrator of the Collaboration was Carston which introduced a bit of a problem. How can a German SS officer be a…. German collaborator…… we tried to introduce a Mistaken Identity but the rules state that only swaps the name of a Victim not a Perpetrator…. You’ll see how this worked out in a bit.

    It should be noted that it became a really big deal that Ludweka died before she received her official Grey Rank name. That she died for her cause, “nameless.” This became an oft repeated and very sad meme.

    Things got rapidly complicated from here… Turns out:

    Konrad and Lidia are moving valuable art objects out of the country using Ludweka as a go between.

    Carston has a fraternal twin brother named Merek and the two can be confused. Merek is Ludweka’s father. He impersonated Carston in an effort to extract Ludweka.

    This has put much animosity between Carston and Merek as Merek’s actions have jeopardized the fact that Carston is really working with the Russians exchanging valuables for information

    But! Carston is really a double agent passing secrets back to the Germans passed in the valuable objects. Secrets placed in the valuable objects by Branislov covering his deliveries as just part of Lidia’s profiteering scheme.

    In particular these are Jewish artifacts that are being passed so that the Germans may frame certain non-jewish individuals and have grounds to arrest them.

    How it all ends….

    Lidia forces Stanislaw to swear allegiance to the people’s army but when forced to choose between his new communist comrades and his Grey Rank peers he sides with the Grey Ranks.

    Stanislaw manages to prove to Lidia that Branislov is a traitor and indeed is the one who tortured Ludweka for her secret documents.

    However, it turns out that Ludweka committed suicide after her brutal treatment from the pain and the guilt of the activities she’d participated in. We nudged the rules a bit here and decided that another Grey Rank was there who put Ludweka out of her misery but that it was at Ludweka’s insistence and decision.

    Stanislaw exposes Lidia’s profiteering and other shady dealings to her fellow People’s Army members who jeer her out in humiliation.

    Merek eventually shoots and kills Carston largely in self defense.

    Merek tries to commit suicide shortly there after but Stanislaw stops him (barely, Merek is still critically injured). Note: This was an interesting scene because Colin called for a Conflict and set his Goal as: “I want to care enough to stop him” which was brutally tragic.

    Notice at this point that all the crimes have been solved except the original Theft which was rapidly seeming trivial. I was the Authority over a scene between Zeta and Stanislaw where Zeta had to urge Stanislaw to go on if only because, “Truth and Justice are Truth Justice regardless of the state of the world” and so that he could, “Sleep at night.”

    Stanislaw goes to interrogate Branislov whose been arrested by the People’s Army. Branislov is shot and killed when he attacks Stanislaw. Sanislaw finds the stolen scroll on his body.

    Stanislaw returns the scroll to Konrad who is fleeing the country (after being shot and injured by Branislov earlier in the story). Stanislaw wishes him well on his journey (a total turn around from his absolute patriotism on the matter earlier on in the story).

    The final scene involved the Grey Ranks raiding Branislov’s apartment and finding a ledger of all the various artifacts he had stolen. There in the ledger is listed Konrad’s scroll. Zeta brings the ledger to Stanislaw and just says, “So you can sleep at night.”

    What I really enjoyed about this story was Stanislaw’s slow transformation from a one-note idealist patriot into a more complex individual. A good chunk of the conflicts involved characters co-opting each other into their person agenda under the guise of patriotism. It was really sad to see Stanislaw slowly realize that all these people who are supposed to be on the same “side” aren’t really all on the same side after all.

    Jesse
  1.  # 3
    First writeup! Thanks, Jesse; that sounds like it went pretty well. Also, please rate your experience with this combination on a 1-10 scale, for those who might follow.
    • CommentAuthorJesse
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2008 edited
     # 4
    In terms of accomplishing Grey Ranks with Dirty Secrets I think I would rate the whole thing as a solid 7. It did tragic war story very well but I think it lacked some of the romantic texturing you would get out of doing Grey Ranks straight. I've listened to 10 minutes of a Grey Ranks game totally out of context and felt like crying before. Unless you count "Patriotism" as "A thing held dear" we didn't see Stanislaw sacrificing much of himself or what he cared for as the game went on to accomplish his goals.

    But just as a game experience in general I rate it much higher closer to a 9 or even 10. It was a great time and I think it demonstrates that Dirty Secrets can be used to create compelling narratives in any setting where human betrayal and deceit is at the forefront of the conflicts.

    Jesse

    Do I get bonus points for coming in first?
  2.  # 5
    Wow, that sounds like the two games meshed quite well. I think you're right that using Dirty Secrets pushed the tragedy buttons to the detriment of the romance and coming of age themes, but a group could make that choice with the original Grey Ranks rules, too. Now I want to try this!
    •  
      CommentAuthoreruditus
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008 edited
     # 6
    Dirty Secrets is getting a lot of play. It may have to go on "the list" - the list of games I should buy, that is.

    I knew this combo would be powerful from the get go. There is a lot to chew on at both ends - Grey Ranks and Dirty Secrets.

    In games focused on tregedy how well does your group dole out the pain? Were there any dissappointments with plot twists or the way things went?

    Thanks,
    - Don
    •  
      CommentAuthorWillH
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008
     # 7
    The other alternative crime I suggested was fraternization. I'm glad we decided to go with just replacing blackmail with collaboration. Fraternization is really just a form of collaboration and the theft basically ended up being rapped up in profiteering any way and had fraternization been in there we would have ended up with a very different story.

    Something Jesse didn't mention, which I found interesting, was during the initial generation of characters we all decided there should be a Jew in the story. We all added that demographic to one of the character cards as they made their way around. After that, we realized we had too many for a realistic feel and used our vetoes to change all but one of those demographics.

    I had a great time playing in this. I feel we didn't just play Dirty Secrets set in occupied Warsaw but really played Grey Ranks using the Dirty Secrets rules. That may seem like there is a subtle, or no, difference between the two, but I think the difference had a huge impact on the fiction we created. Now, I want to play both Grey Ranks and Dirty Secrets straight.
    •  
      CommentAuthorgreatwolf
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008
     # 8
    Hey, Jesse. Great writeup! This is really exciting. I don't have time to comment right now, but I'll be back with more comments.

    Seth Ben-Ezra
    Great Wolf
    • CommentAuthorJesse
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008
     # 9
    Posted By: eruditusDirty Secrets is getting a lot of play. It may have to go on "the list" - the list of games I should buy, that is.


    Get it. Read it. But especially PLAY IT. It's a very skeptical read. I was actually kind of disappointed by it when I first read it. The whole Liar's Dice thing really put me off and the structure seemed too minimal to really push what the game claimed to be about.... I was VERY VERY WRONG. This game is now among my top favorites.

    Posted By: eruditus
    In games focused on tragedy how well does your group dole out the pain? Were there any disappointments with plot twists or the way things went?


    With the increase in popularity of the Strategicon conventions and sites like NerdSoCal I have less of a "group" and more of a steady network of potential players. When I decide to organize a game it's like the opening sequence of the old Mission Impossible where I open up this catalogue of people and assemble my team. But within that network are a lot of really great creative people who know how to throw and take their emotional punches. I fully admit that I'm an emotional masochist when it comes to RPGs and was once even accused of enjoying RPGs as a form of "social violence."

    I don't know if there were any full disappointments. As noted there was a bit of a cognitive disconnect when Carston ended up being the Perpetrator of Collaboration. There was much scrambling to try and justify that and the resulting Carston/Merek subplot was a bit muddled and confused at times in order to make sense of that particular outcome.

    Laura also was a little shocked by the direction the Lidia character took. But I don't think that was "disappointment" per se.

    Jesse
  3.  # 10
    Posted By: Jesse
    Laura also was a little shocked by the direction the Lidia character took. But I don't think that was "disappointment" per se.


    Ludwika, not Lidia. L-name, L-name -- yeah. When Ludwika originally hit the table, I envisioned this Innocent caught up in the roiling terrors of a besieged Warsaw. And then I think it was Patrick? Who suddenly introduced the plotline that Ludwika was actually in on the smuggling/profiteering operation. And by that point Lidia was already A Villain, so then that suddenly coloured my entire perspective of who/what Ludwika was (which prompted the outburst you're no doubt remembering of "No, wait, what? Not Ludwika, no!")

    In the end, it still worked out for me: Lidia was blackmailing Ludwika to do her bidding, which the guilt of drove Ludwika to commit her suicide. She remained the innocent if tainted girl, the catalyst that drove Grom to realize that there is more to war then Nationalistic unity.
    •  
      CommentAuthorWillH
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008
     # 11
    Laura, I thought you were somewhat disappointed when Lidia turned out not to be some young communist idealist.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLaura Bishop
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008 edited
     # 12
    I was disappointed when she turned out to be in it more for herself than for her cause, true. Don't get me wrong: I was disappointed in A LOT of the moral choices the Authority Characters made and the actions they took. I mean, hello, 22 year old Lidia gave 15 year old Ludwika as a "gift" to an SS Officer to bribe him. That's some karmatic bad news bears, right the hell there.

    I just meant that, as far as radical reinterpretations of how I originally perceived a character to be by my fellow Authority players, Ludwika's story and past really spun me around. Didn't everyone else see her as I saw her?! She couldn't -possibly- be caught up in Lidia and Konrad and Branislov's scheming! She was just too Inherently Good! And stuff! I bet! Which is why the end cap of her being blackmailed into it "fixed" that for me. Lidia I had less firm belief's in, so when she went Bad, it was a surprise but didn't wholly rock my worldview.
  4.  # 13
    Posted By: Laura BishopThat's some karmatic bad news bears, right the hell there.

    Now we're talking! Laura, have you played Dirty Secrets straight? I'm wondering how much of this is setting chocolate and how much is system peanut butter.
  5.  # 14
    Posted By: Jason MorningstarNow we're talking! Laura, have you played Dirty Secrets straight? I'm wondering how much of this is setting chocolate and how much is system peanut butter.


    No, I haven't played straight Dirty Secrets and I'm not entirely sure I really want to. The conceptual setting for DS is "your home town, last week". And I'll be dead frank here: I roleplay to -escape- my home town: this week, last week, next week -- escape period. I really liked and enjoyed the specific crimes-driven focus DS brought to the table, but for me - much like Will said - this was very much a Gray Ranks game I played with Dirty Secrets rules.

    I'd be completely down for doing a mash-up like this again, using that crime-driven Dirty Secrets focus in another setting, but the idea of playing Costa Mesa Noir doesn't really appeal to me.
    •  
      CommentAuthorgreatwolf
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008
     # 15
    Posted By: Laura BishopI just meant that, as far as radical reinterpretations of how I originally perceived a character to be by my fellow Authority players, Ludwika's story and past really spun me around. Didn't everyone else see her as I saw her?! She couldn't -possibly- be caught up in Lidia and Konrad and Branislov's scheming! She was just too Inherently Good! And stuff! I bet!


    This is definitely system peanut butter. The reason that Character ownership is shared in Dirty Secrets is to provide precisely this effect. No one can say for sure what a given Character is up to. This is very cool.

    Posted By: Laura BishopThe conceptual setting for DS is "your home town, last week". And I'll be dead frank here: I roleplay to -escape- my home town: this week, last week, next week -- escape period.


    Personally, I've found that roleplaying in my hometown has made me better connected with where I live. This isn't always a good thing; Peoria has a seedy past that spills over into its present. However, it's where I live, so I'll embrace it anyways.

    I can understand that others might not see things this way. If you really don't like the default setting, you could easily hack Dirty Secrets into being a period piece (e.g. L.A. Confidential) or mix it with another genre (e.g. Dresden Files or Blade Runner). Honestly, your experiment right here proves that this is easily done.

    Seth Ben-Ezra
    Great Wolf
    •  
      CommentAuthorgreatwolf
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008
     # 16
    Posted By: JesseHowever, it turns out that Ludweka committed suicide after her brutal treatment from the pain and the guilt of the activities she’d participated in. We nudged the rules a bit here and decided that another Grey Rank was there who put Ludweka out of her misery but that it was at Ludweka’s insistence and decision.


    Assuming that the other Grey Rank wasn't a Character, this is kosher by the rules. Er, at least with the spirit of the rules. In this case, I'd see the other person as the instrument of Ludweka's will, but Ludweka's moral agency is primarily in view.

    Seth Ben-Ezra
    Great Wolf
    • CommentAuthorJDCorley
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008
     # 17
    Since there's a huge amount of dark mysteries set during the Blitz (Lawton), post-Mussolini italy (Morrow) and all sorts of other similar settings, I am not at all surprised this worked.
    • CommentAuthorJesse
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008 edited
     # 18
    Posted By: Great Wolf
    I can understand that others might not see things this way. If you really don't like the default setting, you could easily hackDirty Secretsinto being a period piece (e.g.L.A. Confidential) or mix it with another genre (e.g.Dresden FilesorBlade Runner). Honestly, your experiment right here proves that this is easily done.


    I have this back burner project called Grimmnoir. It was conceived from a combination of a off hand comment made to me by Laura one day and my personal disappointment with Fae Noir. It's supposed to be hard boiled detective fiction set in a fairy tale world. You know, the knight in shining armor uncovers the corruption behind prince charming kind of thing.

    My first step will be to play Dirty Secrets with a Fairy Tale veneer just to see what I what out of Grimmnoir that just doing that exercise alone won't provide.

    Jesse
    •  
      CommentAuthorLinnaeus
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2008
     # 19
    Jesse,

    Something that reviewers and AP hasn't commented on much that I've been wondering about:

    How useful did you find the handbook section of the rulebook? Do the techniques suggested there mostly work out well? Were there any big gaps (that you can't just attribute to the genre mash up)?

    I have to say that, having played a small role in the development of both of these games, this is doubly cool for me to read about :)
    •  
      CommentAuthoreruditus
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2008
     # 20
    Good stuff, guys. Laura's answers was what I was looking for in my question. Collaborative characters seem to be the new sliced bread for many story games. I certainly did it for my horror game.

    You'll see in my Psi-Run game and soon in the playtest of my Contenders "variant, Survivors! that my wife is struggling with shared ownership. A few of the folks that I play with have the same concerns in many of these games, where the character goes off in a direction you really don't expect - the key there is that they are expecting instead of "holding lightly." I was wondering if anyone in Jesse's game ran into that problem for games like Dirty Secrets.

    I love it. Even before I drank the SG koolaid I always encouraged my players to leave swathes of backstory open so we could explore them and I could fill in complicated details. In a traditional game I had always seen my role as the PCs subconscious, their baser drives, inclinations, inuitions, etc while they played the character's conscious mind - I do this and I think that. This was motivated also by my bucking against the idea that players almost always had their characters be perfect - they always did the right thing, they always viewed their actions as flawless. It bugged me so I tried adding some humanity (assuming they were human). Others in my play groups REALLY didn't like that.

    But I am dangerously close to derailing so if anyone is interested in exploring this stuff more by all means start another thread. I was just into discussing correlations to other games, like Dirty Secrets and Psi-Run that share character space.

    Thanks,
    - Don
    • CommentAuthorJesse
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2008
     # 21
    Posted By: Linnaeus
    How useful did you find the handbook section of the rulebook? Do the techniques suggested there mostly work out well? Were there any big gaps (that you can't just attribute to the genre mash up)?


    I personally find the stuff in the handbook section very useful. I think the only other player at the table who'd actually read the book was Will. Which is the one drawback of the handbook: It's very good but hard to communicate succinctly when you're teaching the game to others.

    The real central idea from it I pushed is the idea of everyone having a working theory and playing to that theory when they have Jurisdiction over stuff. When I first played the game I didn't really get that across and the people I were playing with were initially resigned to the outcome being "random" and therefore unsure what to do. I mentioned the working theory thing and the game tightened up quickly so now I make that real clear up front.

    I also try to point out that the solution is not random, it's semi-random because we write names down on the grid. The more you control the grid the more you can write down the names of people YOU personally think are guilty. So that's incentive to start and win conflicts.

    Jesse
    •  
      CommentAuthornoclue
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2008 edited
     # 22
    The GM playing the PC's subconscious??? Blasphemy!!!

    The subconscious is there so that the PC can go into on on berserker rage and get a +2 attacking bonus!!!

    And Jesse, didnt everyone tell you that your not allowd to post AP to sessions i cant make?
    --with increasing envy, james
    •  
      CommentAuthornoclue
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2008 edited
     # 23
    sorry, double post