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Meetups and Conventions: [GenCon 2008] Embassy Nights

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  1.  # 1
    Since I missed Camp Nerdly last weekend*, I've been consoling myself by thinking about this year's GenCon and how much fun it will be. I've got a lot of ideas buzzing around in my head about demos, booth setup, and so forth, but the part I'm really interested in is the after hours gaming at the Embassy Suites.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I've had some seriously mixed experiences trying to play games at the Embassy, despite all the great gaming that I know happens there. Often it's the result of timing (missing the start of games), not knowing people, or not being comfortable interrupting folks to see if I can join in.

    Anyway, I'd like to change all that this year by considering how some of us might come together to apply a bit of "informal structure" to the games, in a fashion similar to what happens at Nerdly or (from what I read) at NerdNYC Recess. Here are a few ideas I'm considering:

    - A loose schedule of games being run at specific times, with people who sign up before the con (perhaps using a wiki)
    - A sign-up board (game, table location, facilitator) in the lobby for ad-hoc games someone is willing to run
    - Materials to make table-tents with game names and player slots clearly visible

    I'm interested in hearing from others about this, whether that's in the form of ideas and enthusiasm or criticism. I recognize some folks like the evenings at the Embassy for just getting together with their friends and keeping their games under the radar, and that's cool. What about the rest of you?

    * Seriously, missing Nerdly physically hurt me. If this post was on paper, it would be damp with tears!
  2.  # 2
    This is a great idea. We did this with games at GenCon back in the early 90's and it helped a lot.
  3.  # 3
    The less formal structure of Nerdly this year worked very well. There was a wiki and it allowed people who really wanted to run a particular game to make sure it happened. Those games were listed on a sheet of poster paper, along with pick-up games that happened in the time slots as well. I think the mix was pretty effective, but not perfect - some people have said they missed out on games.

    So the Embassy Suites gathering of the clan has a couple of facets that are different and noteworthy in my mind:

    * It's a social event, where friends meet once per year to connect and have fun.
    * It's a place where people new to this kind of game can try them among friendly enthusiasts.
    * It's a place where seasoned story gamers get their story on in a serious way, so stand back.
    * It's an awkward gaming "meat market" where status factors into who gets into fun games and who gets left to make their own.

    Some of that is great, some is awful, some unavoidable. There's no way we can organize it, but I think it'd be great to direct all that energy toward positive ends.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDenys
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2008
     # 4
    Last year, folks seemed to filter into key games, while others just sort of sat down and started playing. We did that on and off... the now-infamous Poison'd game blossomed this way - and it seemed to work fine. It was all word-of-mouth "I heard that X was going to be running a game of Y around 8 or 9. Cool!"

    Giving structure to it by having sign-ups or what have you feels... wrong some how.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2008
     # 5
    More:

    Posted By: Jason MorningstarSo the Embassy Suites gathering of the clan has a couple of facets that are different and noteworthy in my mind:


    * It's close to a bar: More socialization, but in a place where one can get drinks.
    * It's a place for folks to meet up, and either sit down for a chat, bust out a newly board board or card game, or even throw down a session of something.

    My big "keep in mind" thing is this: Stuff happens on a whim a lot that night. People who were going to be your players may show up early and drift into another game, or get caught up late at dinner talking at the "table for 14" somewhere until finally showing up at like 9:30 or whatever.

    My own idea, that I'm waffling with, once construction and all is done next year, is to assist the Games on Demand booth, and stretch it out several hours (until about 11PM at night): That way people could bring their food and non-alcoholic drinks*, and throw down at 6, at 8, at whenever. That would also be an area for socializin' and the like. The only drawbacks:

    * Not near a bar. I like buying friends drinks.
    * Sometimes people game in rooms and stuff, and the gaming event hall doesn't have comfy couches.
    * Might be hard to "unwind" in an environment where everyone around you (around the GoD event area) is hardcore playing.

    But I'm following this thread with interest, and will try to think of something; at least a way so that if someone wants something structured, they can get it: Be it a phone messaging/calendar network, or a Games on Demand sign up bulletin board, or whatnot. It probably can't have an online component, as people will mostly not have their PCs with them.

    -Andy

    *I'm totally bringing alcohol
  6.  # 6
    I've had phenomenally bad luck getting into pick-up games at ES, but I chalk that up principally to bad luck/timing. Perhaps something as simple as people who plan on running game putting a little notecard on the table indicating what they are running and when they will be running it would ameliorate the problem.
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2008
     # 7
    I think there could be more use of the Games On Demand post-it board to coordinate some of the stuff happening with GenCon afterplay, but part of the problem is that most of what goes down in the Embassy Suites lounge isn't open play. Most people aren't like "I'm running X, who wants in?" It's more like "John Harper promised me last year that he'd run Agon for me and he never did so THIS YEAR I'm going to jump him at Embassy Suites and make him do it, dammit. And there's Clinton, I'm going to grab him and bring him in. And I've always wanted to get to know person Y better, so I'll see if they want to play." The way into the games is really to get to know people in the community and have enough connections that you can find something to play. Or run something yourself and get to know people that way. Commitments before people actually get there are always shakey at best, because nobody wants to decide to play one game if it means losing the opportunity to play in another game they're even more excited about. Heck, I've shown up and been like, "Hey, do folks wanna play X?" and had people I know really well be like, "Nah, I'm gonna stick around and see if I can play X game with person Y." And, often, hanging out and just talking to folks or watching a game one night can lead to playing in a different game the next night. Like, I played The Roach with Marc Majcher at the GOD booth and then he ended up joining in this weird improv experiment with Em, James, and me.
    • CommentAuthororklord
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2008
     # 8
    Like Justin, I had awful luck at Embassy Suites in 2007. I only played in one RPG there, and that was a pre-scheduled game. So, I'm all for some organization going in. I mean, I'm sure its all well and good for the people who know each other, but ES was pretty lonely for us noobs (not saying Justin is a noob, because he isn't... ok maybe I was the only noob).

    One night I actually spent half an hour walking around with my bag full of RPG books and my lappy looking for anyone to even make eye contact. Another night, Daniel Solis was nice enough to play a board game with me, then I sat and watched Farscape over the Poisoned group (the big TV was somewhat behind them). So I for one, despised the setup of ES in regards to me getting to game. I loved meeting lots of cool people off the con floor, though, that was cool.
  9.  # 9
    I've had nothing but awesome experiences at ES at GenCon.

    But then, they've all been scheduled games through ENWorld/Circvs Maximvs.
  10.  # 10
    I had the best game of the con last year after I told myself "fuck it" and grabbed four people I didn't really know milling around Embassy Suites and set up a game with them.

    As it currently exists, the after hours scene at Gen Con is the universal epicenter and embodiment of everything I hate about status games within our community. I know there are lots of reasons why things go down the way they do, and that no one is evil*, but damn I hate to hear a story like Rich's.

    One idea that might be useful - let's get out the word that everybody - everybody - ought to show up at Gen Con with a game ready to run. That way when somebody asks to join an already-full game, you can say "no room, but sit down next to us and we'll help you rope players for the game you are about to run".

    * Matt Snyder is evil
  11.  # 11
    Let me state now, for the record, that I will be running many, many playtests of Tokyo Rain. I will grab players as available, and anyone should feel free to grab me and make me let them play.
  12.  # 12
    This is sort of where I see the table tents coming in- if you've got a game prepped, and you're interested in running it, you grab a table, write your game name and an ideal number of players on it, and then start roping folks in. Once you've got a few, you can get started, and if there are extra seats, folks should feel welcome to approach you and ask to join in. If you reach capacity or the game gets underway and you don't want to be disturbed, you take the sign down.

    Ultimately, it's not that I want to change the Embassy Suites environment for all the hip kids- they can keep on whispering about backroom sessions and dropping names all they want. I'm just trying to help pull together those folks who are looking to connect and play some games, rather than sitting around watching other folks have a good time.

    Andy, I like the idea of extending GoD to after hours play- that might be a really good solution.
    • CommentAuthorGaerik
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 13
    I stopped the Games on Demand events once the Exhibitor's Hall closed because I figured most folks would be headed over to ES. I am totally cool with using Games on Demand to set up games for after hours that can be moved over to ES. So, if people want to use the GoD board that I'll have set up to post gaming notices for after hours gaming, I'm more than cool with that. In fact, I encourage it.

    Somebody better run a session of Sorcerer so I can finally play that game... dammit.

    Andrew
  14.  # 14
    Using Games On Demand as a sort of organizational entity for after hours gaming is a wonderful idea. I wouldn't want to actually _play_there though, for all the same reasons andy posted above.
    • CommentAuthorGaerik
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 15
    I wouldn't want to depend on playing there either. I don't have the tables scheduled for after hours and given the scarcity of tables this year, that might mean we'd get booted anyway. We could still use GoD to organize some stuff that moves over to the ES though.

    Andrew
    •  
      CommentAuthorAdam Dray
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 16
    I dunno. I both had trouble getting into games, yet was game-rich at ES.

    I walked in to Embassy Suites, didn't see games with any openings, and just ran games. One night it was Roach with like 8-10 people. Another night it was My Life with Master with 3-4 people that knew only me, plus Eric.

    I didn't get the impression that anyone was being excluded. I got the impression that I should have been there an hour earlier when people were gathering for games. Other people may have had different experiences than I, granted.
  17.  # 17
    What about moving the Games On Demand message board over to Embassy Suites each day (if this wouldn't be too much trouble). That way people could sign up and manage their games at where ever people are doing Play Now.
    • CommentAuthorGaerik
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 18
    Posted By: Saint&SinnerWhat about moving the Games On Demand message board over to Embassy Suites each day (if this wouldn't be too much trouble). That way people could sign up and manage their games at where ever people are doing Play Now.


    Works for me. Consider it done if that's what would be helpful.

    Andrew
  19.  # 19
    I just want to put up a contrarian flag here and point out that sometimes I want to play with people at Embassy Suites who I don't see nearly enough. I'm happy to make new friends, but I want time with my current friends.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 20
    Kinda what Rob said.

    I mean, I love (absolutely fucking love) meeting new people at GenCon. I try to do it.

    But that's my choice, to do that. No one has any rights to my time or my play. The only people who could come close to claiming such are already my friends.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  21.  # 21
    Hey guys, just to contrary-contrarian you, then why on earth are you playing in public? I see Ben hanging around, I want to play with him, he's got his evening all lined up and I'm not welcome at his table. Not Ben's problem, ultimately, but it's an ugly situation I see all the time. I'm using Ben as our Everyman here, and I've been him, so no grief implied.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 22
    Because having a public common meet-up point is nice. Also, like, this is not all pre-planned.

    Here's an example from last year.

    I see Rich. Hey, Rich! Wanna play D&D? Sweet.

    Okay. Oh, hey, Tony. Tony probably wants to play D&D. Tony, you want to play D&D? Great.

    Oh, now we have to wait for Alexis. She wanted to play D&D. Cool.

    Oh, look. Mike, you want to play D&D? No. Cool. Anyone else in this little group of people talking with mike? No? Cool.

    Oh, Vincent! You totally want to play D&D. C'mon.

    Julia? Why are you sitting at this table. Want to play D&D? Sweet.

    Now we've got five players, which is really about the limit for a D&D game. So we're done.

    I can't do that except in a public common meeting environment.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  23.  # 23
    What he said. Plus there aren't a lot of private play spaces that I know of.
  24.  # 24
    No one can stop you from playing with your friends. Nobody wants to. But what happened with Rich/Orklord up there? Is there something we can do to make sure that does not happen? I think that's what this thread is a reaction to.

    Rob, three gigantic, interconnected hotels plus a convention center. There's plenty of private space.
  25.  # 25
    Posted By: Jason MorningstarNo one can stop you from playing with your friends. Nobody wants to. But what happened with Rich/Orklord up there? Is there something we can do to make sure that does not happen? I think that's what this thread is a reaction to.

    I completely agree with you, Jason.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 26
    Absolutely. I'm just saying that the solutions proposed so far (a big board, etc.) don't work for me. I don't want a big board. Committing to run a game hours ahead, for who-ever wants it (or on a first-come-first-served basis) is way too much work.

    If you want to play a game with me, grab me (during the day or at night) and say "Hey, Ben, I want to play a game with you."

    I will probably say yes.
  27.  # 27
    Yeah, that's pretty much the point. This isn't intended to kick down the doors of anybody's social club- if you want to play with specific people, that's awesome. In the scenario I'm suggesting, you wouldn't put up a sign on your table or write any "looking for players" messages. In other words, participation would be optional.

    It is worth pointing out that the simplest way to get your game on is, as Adam and Jason mentioned above, being prepared and ready to run a game instead of waiting for someone else to do it. I think that's a starting point for everything else we might discuss here, and applies to Games on Demand too.
    • CommentAuthorJudd
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 28
    That Rich didn't find games at Embassy Suites isn't just a bummer for Rich but for the people who didn't get to game with and meet Rich. He's natural-born police. /Wire-speak

    I'd love to figure out a system of meeting and breaking the ice so that people who might not know as many folks face to face can get aggressively grabbed into games as they happen without sign-up sheets and schedules and such.

    Hmm.

    I'm thinkin' on it.
    • CommentAuthorJudd
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 29
    Where was the con where people put orange traffic cones on their tables if there was an opening for a game?

    We need us some traffic cones.
  30.  # 30
    Rich is natural born murder police.

    I like the cone idea. I like the idea of finding a way to include people and increase social interaction, so the guy who doesn't really know anybody or is shy gets to meet enough folks that there's a little network going. Maybe we need "natural born murder police" buttons.
    •  
      CommentAuthorWillH
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008 edited
     # 31
    Posted By: Jason MorningstarI like the idea of finding a way to include people and increase social interaction, so the guy who doesn't really know anybody or is shy gets to meet enough folks that there's a little network going. Maybe we need "natural born murder police" buttons.


    If only there were some easily recognizable symbol we could put on some buttons for people to wear. :)

    P.S. I think the cone idea is a good one, but I don't think using cones is practical. Some sort of collapsable signe would work better IMO.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 32
    I'm really, strongly, super in favor of the "asking nicely" idea.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  33.  # 33
    So there's asking nicely, but then there's Ben wants to play with his friends. I know those aren't mutually exclusive in theory, but they are mutually exclusive in practice. That's what I observe, anyway. Unless I'm missing trenchant sarcasm.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 34
    I don't think that they're mutually exclusive at all. The only thing missing is that some people have convinced themselves that it's not okay to ask. I am telling them, right now, that it's okay to ask and furthermore that that's the only way you'll ever get to play a game with me, unless I ask you.

    If you want to be a friend of mine, you ask nicely. I don't have a waiting list where I cull directly from the top when I want more friends, or some sort of blind sorting system, or even posting on story games being like "i want some more friends, who's up for it?" To do that would be insulting and arrogant.

    Likewise, if you want to play a game with me, you ask nicely. I don't have a waiting list where I cull directly from the top when I want more players, or some kind of blind sorting system, or a post on a bulletin board being like "i want some more players, who's up for it?" To do that would be insulting and arrogant.
  35.  # 35
    Wow, we have diametrically opposed ideas of what constitutes insulting and arrogant. That explains a lot! Our good faith best practices are bound to mess each other up. Huh.
  36.  # 36
    I'm not sure that there's a precise mapping of Friend -> Player. Honestly, I don't have to be your friend to play games with you (although being friendly helps). Asking for friends might be either arrogant or just pathetic, but inviting people to play games is just being welcoming and open. It's only arrogant if someone thinks people will flock to their table because they're a rockstar.
    • CommentAuthorJudd
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 37
    Ben,

    So, Embassy Suites, as it stands right now, works for you.

    Great!

    It doesn't and hasn't for some people.

    Folks are trying to work out a system so that it'll work better for them. I'm going to help 'em.

    If you don't want any part of it, that is entirely cool.

    I don't understand what we're getting out of this back-and-forth, here.

    Judd
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 38
    No, I'm not happy with it. I'm deeply unhappy with it. I just think that the proposed solutions here all make the situation worse, not better.

    I'm actually suggesting a solution, here, but you guys can't seem to see it because it's not explicitly mechanical, and you're hung up on the idea of a mechanical solution.

    Previously, in the GenCon night gaming scene, there was an implied culture that you should just ask about the games you want to play, and the people you want to play with, and then go play them. I was indoctrinated into this culture the first time I went to GenCon.

    Somewhere along the line, the whole scene was opened up to the public, on the internet, and the internet bullshit has sprayed all over it in a filthy diarrhea: the idea that we're not acting as peers, but in a hierarchy, and the people lower on the hierarchy aren't allowed to interact in a normal, human way with the people higher on the hierarchy.

    So what I'm saying, here, publicly, is "no, that's not how the GenCon evening play scene should work. It should work in an environment of peers, where we treat each other like civilized human beings and use our words to ask for things nicely."

    That's a change, it's a huge change, and it's a needed one.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  39.  # 39
    Let me just throw out that what happened to Rich was not an isolated incident. Aside from the Star Wars PTA game we both played in with Judd, Mick and Paul "Effing" Tevis, the ES thing just didn't happen for me, and I was staying at the ES, where it was easy for me to be there at literally every hour of the night. Will it happen this year? I hope not, and I don't think so, but there's always another me/Rich.
  40.  # 40
    OK, so Ben's well and truly not on board. That's cool. And he's definitely right that mechanical organization isn't going to solve a social problem all by itself. Anyway!

    Some identified problems:

    1. People show up and can't find a game to play.

    My suggestions - come with a game prepped to run. Make it obvious where a player is welcome and needed. Set stuff up in advance if you want.

    2. People really only want to play with their best pals sometimes, and not Internet mopes.

    My suggestion - don't play in a public area.

    3. People are Internet mopes and don't know anybody.

    My suggestions - be welcoming and kind. Make it a point to corral people you don't know into your sessions. Reject status games. Create social networks. I f you are one of these people, go make a friend at the Forge booth and environs. Come find me or Ben or Steve or Judd or Rich and we will help you make some connections.
  41.  # 41
    Posted By: Ben LehmanSo what I'm saying, here, publicly, is "no, that's not how the GenCon evening play scene should work. It should work in an environment of peers, where we treat each other like civilized human beings and use our words to ask for things nicely."

    That's a change, it's a huge change, and it's a needed one.

    Thanks Ben, that is helpful. I still think there's room for some relaxed organization to help get interested folks into games together, but it's good to start with an explicit statement like yours to make sure everyone feels comfortable.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 42
    People who feel a burning desire to look out of the interests of new folk:

    Take a night out of your con to only play with people you've never played with before. Seek those people out and nail them to the floor until they play a game with you.

    I'm probably going to do this.

    yrs--
    --Ben
    •  
      CommentAuthorAdam Dray
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 43
    Something I've learned about people over the years. There are people who don't like to ask, because it seems rude. They like to be invited. There are people who like to ask, because who does it hurt to say no? They don't wait around to be invited. These two groups of people don't understand each other.

    I'm not gonna tackle the getting-people-into-games issue right now. I want to tackle a bigger problem of making people feel included as part of "the group," which is a fictional concept that doesn't exist.

    Every single person should take responsibility for introducing the people they know. If you know Rich and he doesn't know other people, introduce him to the people you know. Then Rich has a social connection to those people and he can ask them if they're running games and they can invite him and stuff. If no one introduces Rich, he's a random gamer wandering around the lounge and, people being people, he has a smaller chance of getting invited into games because he' s a total stranger.

    That rule up there about introducing people? It's not only basic common sense, it's also considered "proper etiquette," i.e. polite behavior. It's rude not to introduce people when they're standing next to you. Let's not be like that.

    I drove up to Dreamation with Dave Cleaver and Daniel Levine (different than the Daniel who posted above). Dave knows everyone already, pretty much. Daniel hadn't met any of those people before. I made it my quest to introduce him to many, many people. I hope he had more fun as a result.
  44.  # 44
    Posted By: Ben LehmanTake a night out of your con to only play with people you've never played with before.

    I did this last year and, as I mentioned up-thread, it was the best game of the con. Definitely encouraged!
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
     # 45
    Jesus, Yes, Adam, introductions! That's going to go a long, long way towards making things less socially awkward (almost ... as if it was designed to do so?)

    This goes along with "acting like mature people and not people on the internet."
  46.  # 46
    A few thoughts. If used, the board 'after hours' should only be to facilitate communication and provide a place to meet up (for those of us who are unfamiliar with the scene). It is not to obligate anyone to run any particular game. When I was involved with open gaming this is all we used it for.

    So, when we're at Embassy Suites use a board to connect with your friends or make new ones. I just think everyone should push hard to bring as many people into our network as possible. That way our circle of friends keeps growing. B-)
  47.  # 47
    My experience was similar to Rich's until the last night of the con where I decided that I had come to Gen Con to play and so I was going to play. This involved tackling Andy K and begging him to let me play his game which he was nice enough to let me do and then similarly gut punching Matt Gandy until he let me play Seiyuu.

    There was only one problem. I knew Andy from interviewing him on Canon Puncture, but I still felt like I was intruding and that I think is the one problem with people asking to game.

    Ben, I naturally assume you have a full schedule so I'm not going to feel comfortable asking. Same with Jason and Judd and everyone else. The only reason I begged my way into the games I did was because Andy happened to be standing close to me when he mentioned the game and I believe I interrupted a conversation he was having.

    I feel like there's wisdom here. Perhaps it's that we need to ensure that as we move towards Gen Con that we get the word out that's okay to ask and the whole introduction/meet people thing is a good idea. However, I am wondering what time I should show up? When does it start? I didn't have the Table for 14 issue, I had to cover events for the podcast.

    Oh, and I will have Neoborn games ready to play for anyone who wants to play... :)
    • CommentAuthorCarl
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008 edited
     # 48
    This thread puts me in mind of Ask vs. Guess culture:


    In some families, you grow up with the expectation that it's OK to ask for anything at all, but you gotta realize you might get no for an answer. This is Ask Culture.

    In Guess Culture, you avoid putting a request into words unless you're pretty sure the answer will be yes. Guess Culture depends on a tight net of shared expectations. A key skill is putting out delicate feelers. If you do this with enough subtlety, you won't even have to make the request directly; you'll get an offer. Even then, the offer may be genuine or pro forma; it takes yet more skill and delicacy to discern whether you should accept.

    All kinds of problems spring up around the edges. If you're a Guess Culture person ... then unwelcome requests from Ask Culture people seem presumptuous and out of line, and you're likely to feel angry, uncomfortable, and manipulated.

    If you're an Ask Culture person, Guess Culture behavior can seem incomprehensible, inconsistent, and rife with passive aggression.

    Thing is, Guess behaviors only work among a subset of other Guess people -- ones who share a fairly specific set of expectations and signalling techniques. The farther you get from your own family and friends and subculture, the more you'll have to embrace Ask behavior. Otherwise you'll spend your life in a cloud of mild outrage at (pace Moomin fans) the Cluelessness of Everyone. -- posted by tangerine at 11:38 PM PST on January 16


    Neither is wrong, but the interactions can lead to sadness.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNeil Gow
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 49
    Can I throw an even more difficult spanner in the works?

    I couldn't even find the place last year. I looked. But my map-fu failed me terribly.

    Here's how I see it - for 51 weeks of the year, here and on other forums, we read about these Embassy Suite nights. We read about the great people and the great games and the coming together of the indie/story/hippy clan for a few days. It is talked about like the epicentre of all things cool and hot and rocking. If you can make it there, you'll make it anywhere! (If you can feckin find the place!)

    Regardless of whether you like, dislike, buy-into or reject notions like 'status games', as a new attendee to this arena you are walking into a real thorny problem. You have a place where a lot of people know a lot of other people, intimately, and you cannot discern those networks. You have a load of people who you know only as their internet tags and personas, rather than as real people. You have a bunch of people who are constantly being feted on these boards for their cool games, their cool GMing and their cool gameplay.

    Go on, dive in, make yourself at home - what could go wrong........? (famous last words)

    So here's what I would do.

    1. Make sure that everyone knows where to go. Have a map available as a flyer to everyone who comes to the Forge booth, Ashcan Front/Play Collective and Games on Demand (and other affiliate booths)
    2. If you demo to someone, personally invite them to ES and let them know what sort of stuff goes on. The more people that turn up the more likelihood people will not be left alone, the more likely that new groups of friends will form.
    3. Have a selection of volunteer GMs who will 'mop up' the new people each night. On other nights they can play with their mates, but on one night they have the task to induct the new players into the clan.

    In the end, if the event is ran as an informal throwdown gaming session around a bar with an extended group of friends, then its very difficult to stick any structure or imperative onto people to act in a certain fashion. If it becomes too formal then it ceases being fun. If you pitch a middle ground, it could work. Or be a mess. YMMV.

    I can't make GenCon this year, but I intend to be back, so at least sort the map out .... or get a neon sign? <grin>

    Neil
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 50
    Hey, so I'm doing layout for the Indie Game Passport this year, which could conceivable mention and give directions to the ES afterplay thingee. The problem is, that by including that info in the passport I (or we, the people involved in the passport) would be arbitrarily changing the nature of something that was happening years before I was ever a part of it. It changes what started as a relatively private get-together for the folks working at the Forge Booth into a public event. And, like the thorny evolution of Game Chef from being a contest within the limited community of the Forge to being an open event, that's liable to change a lot of things. Are we prepared for that? Because, if not, that just means that, afterwards, we're going to be having painful discussions where we thrash ourselves for not being open enough or reminisce fondly about the lost golden days of ES games of the past. Also, I'm pretty damned sure that I don't want to openly publicize those games without a general consensus from those people who've been involved with it in the past, so they don't hate me forever for "ruining" a good thing. Like all major changes, this isn't going to work for everyone, many people are going to end up unhappy with it, and, most likely, the first few years we try it in a new format, it may totally suck for many of those folks most closely involved with it in the past. But if we think we're ready for that...
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 51
    Additionally: one of the reasons that ES works is that it's not a public event. It's slower and, often, quieter (volume wise) than most of what happens at GenCon. It's a place to relax, where there's enough people that you can find people to hang / play with, but no so many that it's super-crowded and you're lost in a sea of people. The sense I have is that it's already changing in this regard, that each year is louder and more crowded than the last and there's less space to actually find a free table and play. Ultimately, we will probably have to deal with this at some point, one way or the other.
  52.  # 52
    You know I'm all for putting a note on there. Yeah, it's the tragedy of the commons as our secret enclave is choked with enthusiastic goofs. So what? If it makes you sad, do something else. Play in your room. Find a new secret enclave and don't invite me. If somebody has the passport they probably want to play these games, so telling them where and how is just being friendly.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 53
    Posted By: Jason MorningstarIf somebody has the passport they probably want to play these games, so telling them where and how is just being friendly.


    I'm all for that, too. The only thing is that in reality, the Embassy Suites is not our private playspace. Some folks just end up meeting there and hanging out, doing some gaming. There's LOTS of folks that show up there, not just "us": Last year there were a bunch of independent tables doing Starcraft Board Game marathons and the like. I want to allow all to come, but I'm not sure I want to promise gaming on an open invitation: It feels like inviting strangers to someone else's house, and taking advantage of one hotel's niceness in leaving a common area open.

    Ex: What if this or next year we get there only to find that because of noise issues or whatever they close off the dining area after hours? I mean, sure, speculating about possibles is pretty empty and all that. But in the end, there's something that we have to balance. Well, there's lots of issues, but one that kinda matter to me is:

    * I'd like to see more people come, hang out, play or whatever.
    * And yet, it's not our place. We're infringing on the hospitality of Embassy Suites. If we rented a convention room/play space at ES, I can totally thumbs-up get behind putting that up on a flyer or whatever. But since we're basically busting into a free area, it's more like inviting strangers into someone else's living room (or holding a concert in a public park after hours without a permit) , without their knowledge or explicit consent, and hoping/wishing this doesn't cause a problem.

    I like the idea of folks organizing ways to meet up and play after hours, at ES or wherever. I'm not all that cool with exploiting ES's hospitality as if it were a given.

    -Andy
    •  
      CommentAuthorjenskot
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 54
    This may sound overly simplistic, but it worked amazing for me and I played many games at the Embassy Suites with many people I had never played with before.

    Jungle Speed

    I know Jungle Speed has a lot of baggage. And when people play it too aggressively they scare others away. But when played for fun where losing is as much fun as winning, it's awesome because:

    - games last 5-10 minutes
    - you can scale between 2-8+ players easily
    - and rotate players in and out easily
    - you aren't playing a character
    - talking gentle trash is a great ice breaker
    - even if you are color blind and un-coordinated (many people were), just incorporate those details into your trash talking
    - people watching you or talking to you while you play (unlike most RPGs) is part of the fun!
    - increase your energy levels which is a great way to prime for playing an RPG after a long day of running around

    This is part of the reason why Jungle Speed became so popular at our local East Coast cons. Strangers could join in easily. And then we gained enough of a connection that it made it super easy to split up into RPG groups with new people.

    I'm also a huge fan of no pre-planning. No schedules. No pre-registration. For me, what works best is ice breaker games, signs indicating when there are open spots in games, shorter games so you can rotate people in and out easily, and people keeping their eyes out for stragglers and trying to get them into games.

    Rock,
    John
  55.  # 55
    Andy, you raise an important point. I feel a possessiveness about the space that is entirely unwarranted. The hotel could kick us all out if they wanted to, and we share the space with people doing other things as well.

    John, I'm with you. I don't think adding formality is going to help, but some prep work around the idea of making games more open, welcoming, and easy to find seems well spent.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjenskot
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 56
    Also, if you want to run a game, please be 100% clear about what is involved in playing the game. Have you run it before? Do you know the rules? Are there pre-created characters? If not, does making characters take more than 15-20 minutes? Do you have character sheets? Is the game longer than 2-3 hours? Is the game a big railroad? Being up front and prepared will only make it easier to attract commitments to play.
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 57
    Yeah, Andy's points are important. In the long run, we may need our own dedicated space.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjenskot
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 58
    Posted By: Jason MorningstarJohn, I'm with you. I don't think adding formality is going to help, but some prep work around the idea of making games more open, welcoming, and easy to find seems well spent.

    I 100% agree! And I'm excited to help create that atmosphere. The game I'm designing is meant to facilitate that! Shorter games, takes 5 minutes to make characters, you can jump in whenever you want, and audience participation, even people just watching, is highly encouraged!

    Knowing if a game is open or closed would be a huge benefit to me. Too many times I would approach a closed game and quickly realize I was intruding.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAdam Dray
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 59
    There's a big difference between "can we figure out how to make folks feel more welcome at the Embassy Suites gaming events" and "let's run our own little indie convention in the lounge of the Embassy Suites after hours." Let people figure out there's gaming there on their own. Once they're there, let's make people feel welcome into our games, whoever they are.

    None of this really addresses the fact that there's nothing wrong with a bunch of good friends (who see each other once or twice a year and who are busy otherwise during the day) finding a table in the lounge of their hotel and gaming together. Exclamations of "get a room" don't necessarily play. Rooms often don't have a suitable gaming table. Rooms are sometimes shared by people not involved in the game. The lounge is an amenity for use by the hotel's patrons, so Embassy Suites customers can expect to use the lounge for their private gaming without being rude. Use of a "public" (really, "shared") space does not mean you have to open your game to the public, or that keeping your game private is rude.

    Also, until we start designing games that can seat more than 4-6 players, games are going to continue to "exclude" people.
  60.  # 60
    What about a flag or something that indicates that you're looking for people to join the game so that when people approach to ask if they can get in they're not being intrusive?
  61.  # 61
    Hey Adam, I totally agree with you about private and public. There's nothing we can or should do to stop people from arranging and playing a closed game in the common space. That's going to happen regardless of what we think up to make after hours gaming better.
  62.  # 62
    Posted By: Robert BohlWhat about a flag or something

    I was thinking the same thing. I'll see about making some flags.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 63

    Jesus fuck, Morningstar and others.

    Embassy Suites isn't part of the con space. It's a hotel where some people stay, and they kindly tolerate the mad rowdiness of the indie games people during GenCon out of their own business acumen and kindness - but it's not part of the con.

    Adding it to the passport, advertising, whatever, putting it on paper, makes it a formal part of the con, whether you've cleared it with the organisers of the con and the owners of the space or not.

    It's not a public thing and it shouldn't be, because that's not an appropriate way for us to use that space. It is essentially that "private space for you to play with your friends" that you're telling everyone to get, when in fact we already have one and you're trying to turn it into something it isn't.

    If you want a space for unstructured play to emerge for, like, internet goofs that you don't know personally, isn't that the whole purpose behind Games On Demand? Use it.

  64.  # 64
    But Shreyas, talking about it here is essentially promoting it, and by your logic it's therefore part of the con right?
    • CommentAuthorValamir
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 65
    First a little history.

    I think alot of the problem is people assuming ES is something its not. That started because alot of people who had great game play started talking how much fun it was, and alot of other people (understandably) wanted to share in the fun.

    But ultimately the ES get together began as a way for people who worked together hard all day at the Forge Booth could finally get some gaming in after hours. We could play full games of the games we'd just been demoing. We could learn more about the games we'd be selling the next day, and so on.

    In such an environment there really wasn't any "I don't know anyone, I'm having trouble getting into a game" stuff. If you can go an entire day working the Forge Booth with 20-30 other people rotating in and out...and NOT get to know any of them enough to be comfortable scheduling a game with them...that's your own problem. Many of the games being played at ES were scheduled ad hoc during business hours at the booth..."after dinner lets meet up at the Embassy to play X".

    Since the "diaspora" we now have seperate booths for the Ashcan Front, Play Collective, Burning Wheel et.al. but the concept is still the same. People who worked nearly all day on the dealer floor want to have some time to actually play.


    Now here's my 2 cents.

    THAT'S what the Embassy Suites are FOR (and here I mean the concept of evening play that historically has just happened to occur at the ES). If you aren't a booth person (at whatever booth), if you didn't just spend 6-8 hours on your feet shilling and roping and talking and demoing and selling...then IMO, your needs / wants / desires are secondary.

    NOT because you're not important, or because you're an outsider, or because you don't have "status" as a designer or any of that bullshit. But because you have an entire 4 days at the largest gaming convention in North America to play whatever you want, whenever you want: offical GenCon scheduled games, pick up games, meet up games planned with people on line (like RPG.net folks do every year).

    Those of us who work the booths all day, don't have that opportunity. The Embassy Suites is often the only shot we have to actually play games...not demo...not running a scehduled session, not working G.O.D...but to just sit down and enjoy play. I'm sorry if this sounds selfish...but this is OUR time to game.

    If there are some non-booth-working-folks who manage to get into a few games and enjoy themselves...fantastic...welcome and glad to have you.

    But if there are some non-booth-working-folks who feel left out...IMO...sorry, but you aren't the target audience for this event.

    If there are some booth-working folks who feel left out...I don't know what to say about that, but making sure to do some more connecting with the people you're working with, and doing a little quick scheduling during working hours should take care of it.

    Honestly for me...the moment booth working people have trouble getting a game because the ES is filled with non-booth-working people wanting to play too...that's the moment it fails utterly. I'm not trying be exclusionary here, just recognizing the fact that for the last 7 years the ONLY gaming I get to do at GenCon happens at the Embassy Suites. That's why I'm there every night gaming.

    Non-booth-working-folks need to be a little bit considerate about this as well.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008 edited
     # 66
    CW Richeson locked down a room one of the hotels for night gaming, for an RPGNet meetup on Saturday night until 12 at night. I'll ask him how much it cost. Not to make it happen, but just to put that option on the radar. It was at the hotel whose name I forget (although where I am staying this year), the one where the anime stuff was happening.

    Next year? I'll step in and try to help Games On Demand be an event that stretches into the evening as well, for those who want to just straight meet up and game or talk. But note that even I, too, will not always be there running the thing, for I will be stepping over to the ES from time to time to drink hard liquor with Senkowski or to hear Ron's latest noise.

    -Andy
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 67

    Rob, if you consider what you're doing to be promoting it, then I consider what you're doing to be inappropriate.

    I'm pretty sure "for your goals X is the wrong thing to do, do this other thing Y that already exists for the purpose you want," doesn't really constitute a promotion of X.

    •  
      CommentAuthorNeil Gow
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008 edited
     # 68
    (ridiculously crossposted by about four people...yikes!)

    EXACTLY

    When we came over last year we knew about the Embassy Suites because we had read about it here, on this nice open public forum thing. And people said how cool it was and how open it was and how great it was to meet people, join in new games and be at the heart of our corner of the hobby.

    If you hold an event in a public area, talk about it on a public forum and say its great and open and inclusive then goddamit, people will annoyingly turn up to it!

    Whatchagonnado?

    Tell them to go away?
    Ignore them?
    Avoid eye contact?
    Slink off to a corner or your room?

    You might accept that some people are going to be disappointed and thats just part of life? You might accept that there is a massive storygames clique and ES is its gathering place? You might try to help these newcomers? You might not.

    Shall I be honest about why I might sound a little skittish here? Last year I managed to get exactly zero demos from the Forge (every time I wanted a demo of a game, there was no-one available to handle it), one excellent but rushed game from GoD (TLBs PTA game in 90 minutes.) and never got to find the Embassy Suites as said before. Those that know me or have met me will attest to the fact that I am not a wholly shy person <grin> but as a community sometimes this can be a bloody difficult group to penetrate.

    Ah, catharsis. Its great.

    Neil
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 69

    Last year I managed to get exactly zero demos from the Forge

    What? How? I mean, did you sneak in after hours when nobody was at the booth or something?

    •  
      CommentAuthorNeil Gow
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 70
    No. Honestly

    I would walk up and say, holding the menu thing

    "Can I have a demo of Game X?" The person would look around and say "Nope, {insert name} isn't here right now."
    "Can I have a demo of Game" ...runs finger down menu... "Y?" and the reply was the same.

    Try that a couple of times and well ....its GenCon. I can find things to do elsewhere. I'm POSITIVELY CERTAIN that I was just the most unlucky person on the planet at the time because there were dozens of people getting demos all over the place at the Forge. I didn't go totally without. I got all Giant'd up at the Ashcan Front, Malcolm did Cold City me at Play Collective (and collared me for CE as well) and I spent a highly productive 30mins being taught the ins and out of Burning Wheel by a very nice man at that booth. It wasn't like it was a total loss!!

    Anyway, just to add one thing

    Valamir's description - if thats the case, then I hold my hands up and say 'cool beans'. I never realised thats what it was.

    Neil
    Unlucky in demos...
    Lucky in love...
    •  
      CommentAuthorAdam Dray
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 71
    I've never found this group difficult to penetrate. That's just my experience though. And I consider myself a pretty reserved and shy dude in person (if you think otherwise, then my compensating mechanisms are working, but it's hard for me).

    Two years ago, I was able to sit in about 12 Forge Booth demos. The trick is not being picky about what you sit for. I'd just see who was available and play their game. Maybe it's lugs like me who keep good people like you, Neil, from sitting in demos. <=)
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008 edited
     # 72
    Posted By: Neil Gow
    Tell them to go away?
    Ignore them?
    Avoid eye contact?
    Slink off to a corner or your room?


    Heh, none of the above. :-)

    To combine that with this:

    Posted By: ValamirI'm sorry if this sounds selfish...but this is OUR time to game.


    This is true. It is also the time to game of residents of Embassy Suites, who show up with their board games, card game, etc. (more and more, I noticed, over the years; perhaps inspired by seeing a bunch of others loitering around and playing games: For that, I'm glad!).

    Anyway, in the end, if someone comes along, and I'm sitting there on my butt with a beer in the middle of a conversation, and someone cruises by without doing introductions (though how would they know us, and we them? That's a question), I have no idea if they're looking for the Hot After-Hours Gaming, if they're looking for their roommates who are in the back playing Starcraft: The Board Game. if they're just there to get a beer before they head back to their room, or if they just heard the noise and were attracted to see what was going on.

    I don't want to be all hard and be like, "There's No Cliques! Other folks are not responsible for you being an introvert! We're not psychic, and don't know if you're standing near me without saying "hi" because you want in, or if you're there because we're just something to stare at while you kill time because your roommates are having sex and you can't get into your room", but I would say, "If you show up, and see people who you think might be playing some of those games (or talking, whatever), and want 'in', say Hi and introduce yourself... because the others really have no idea if you are there to participate, or are waiting for friends, just there for beer and nachos, whatever".

    And on the other side, sounds like Jason might be thinking of getting a few people who are interested in helping other out, wear little badges or something to make themselves accessible. Or coordinate with the G.O.D bulletin board. I don't see any harm in that. Just as long as we remember that we don't own that space, and the best way to be able to tell who's being included and who's being excluded is to move to a private space, where all who walk through the door are welcomed with a roar and ushered into a free game.

    I'm interested more and more in helping make this happen. I'll keep an eye on folks' ideas. This year things are hamstringed because official planning/schedules are posted (and thus we probably can't extend GOD to night), and because there's the perpetual construction going on which is going to reduce event space to a fraction of what it normally is.

    I'll look into that gaming room idea. In the meantime, feel free to shake folks' hands and tell them that there's usually gaming at ES, but just that they'll need to look for us and introduce themselves so we know they're not there for something else. There's social fixes and conventions that can be implemented without having to fall back to rules.

    -Andy
  73.  # 73
    Thanks for weighing in, Shreyas. It makes me sad that this topic has brought up to much acrimony and push-back. My core interest is making it a welcoming space for new people, and facilitating a lot of great games, which can't be that weird an interest to have.

    I guess we have different ideas about what constitutes an official thing. Is the passport an official thing, or is it a marketing tool thrown together by a few booths? Maybe we're both right. Pointing people to where the games are played doesn't seem like a huge transgression. It's hard to be welcoming when you have people like Neil (who is a stand-up dude) unable to even find it. Or the various people who've said they had a hard time finding a game in a big room full of gamers - can't we fix that, or even try?

    I already recognized that we're sort of mis-using the space to begin with, and I don't have a short-term solution for that. The long-term solution, as Jonathan said, is to rent our own space or secure it from the con somehow.

    As far as I know, Games on Demand isn't running all night. Correct me if I'm wrong. Is it actually running all night? That'd be great!
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008 edited
     # 74
    Posted By: Jason MorningstarPointing people to where the games are played doesn't seem like a huge transgression.


    I absolutely agree. IMO and all that, anyway. When I was with the Forge Booth, I told about everyone with ears who was into the games about the ES gaming. Last year, I personally invited about a dozen people (from all my G.O.D slots and the like: Few showed up, but at least when I saw their faces I knew it was for the gaming/talks, and not because they were there for late night munchies only). Double thumbs up on inviting people. Inviting everyone. Everyone you see. Excluding no one. Personally. By word of mouth.

    Putting it on paper, though, I'm with Shreyas: Imagine it got back to the Embassy Suites staff that there's a flyer going around telling folks to crash the... well, I imagine they're making a lot off the beer and sodas and munchies they're selling, but it might make things complicated. If anything, on the passport/equivalent, I'd like write in fine print somewhere at the bottom that "sometimes some folks can be found around the ES lobby at night: Say hi and maybe play!". But I would be against making it into a "stamp".

    Posted By: Jason MorningstarAs far as I know, Games on Demand isn't running all night. Correct me if I'm wrong. Is it actually running all night? That'd be great!


    Yeah, not this year. I'm thinking of assisting next year to help register/staff it for evenings.

    Here's the tricks:
    Apparently last year, after the GOD area was "closed", there weren't any events at those tables, anyway. So we pretty much could have used them throughout the night.
    "Yay! We might expect that this year, too!"
    Probably not, because of the construction and limited space this year (IIRC, someone said something like only 40-50% of the space last year will be usable this year because of rennovations). I'm sure that at 6:01 or whenever the tables are officially closed (it was either 4:00 or 6:00, I forget which), there's likely to be events going down on those tables once we pack up the green felt tabletop things.
    If not, though? Then cool, we then officially have a hook-up and play spot.

    -Andy
  75.  # 75
    Posted By: Neil GowValamir's description - if thats the case, then I hold my hands up and say 'cool beans'. I never realised thats what it was.

    It's a lot of things. It isn't that for me, obviously, or Shreyas, so it doesn't have to be that for you. But Ralph articulating that helped me understand where some of the anger and frustration is coming from.
    If anything, on the passport/equivalent, I'd like write in fine print somewhere at the bottom that "sometimes some folks can be found around the ES lobby at night: Say hi and maybe play!"

    That's exactly what I was thinking.
    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 76

    I don't know when GoD is running. It probably should run all night, but I'm not the guy to ask.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you think something might be transgressive, and you're living in someone's hospitality and not your own space, you shouldn't do it; it's more important to be a good guest. I see that you're thinking of yourself as a host, trying to set up a welcoming atmosphere, but that's not what you are in this situation. If you formally set up an event and define a space and own that space, that's one thing, and that's a good course of action, but putting up advertisements that make it appear that you own a place, when in fact you are a guest in that hotel, is not a thing that you should do.

    Is the passport an official thing, or is it a marketing tool thrown together by a few booths?

    Uh, what? This is like, "Is a banana a thing you can eat, or is it a fruit?" If it's a thing that's put together by a couple of booths that own space in the convention, then that implies that it's talking about space, topics, events, whatever, that are owned by those booths. It's a thing that looks official; the way you, as a person who saw it come together, perceive it, doesn't matter. It matters how a random congoer will see it, and if that random congoer gets a piece of advertising swag from a booth and it says, "Come play games with us at ES!" then they will think, "Oh, there's a GenCon event at ES in the evening! Cool!"

    I mean, seriously. Listen to Ben. He is a smart guy who is saying a thing that makes sense. If you want to play with people, ask them to play. You've got the social skills to communicate to people, "I'm maybe open to joining some people to play in the evening." Use your words instead of hiding behind gamer-systems, and you'll be doing everyone a favor.

    •  
      CommentAuthorHoho
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2008
     # 77

    Furthermore, being too welcoming is dangerous, again 'cause you're running on someone else's hospitality. If you're not selective about how you use that space, who you invite in, and how you behave there, you might lose that space, and you might take that space away from everyone.

    Don't do that.

  78.  # 78
    Posted By: shreyasbeing too welcoming is dangerous

    I want that on a T-Shirt.

    Anyway, Internet Nerd Rage aside, I'll make some little flags or something you can put on your table if you want. I love the idea of aggressively recruiting people I don't know to play with like I did last year, and also sneaking off to play a game with my best buds one night in some dark, quiet place. I'll have something prepped to run every night so if I get caught out, I can still throw down. Maybe next year we can arrange to have Games On Demand open very late.
  79.  # 79
    Data point: Security came through the ES lobby twice last year, asking us to keep the noise level down.

    Like Shreyas said, we don't own the space. We are not hosts. However y'all want to deal with being more welcoming, lets keep that idea front and center. The ES staff has been very gracious with us, but we can be sure that will go away real fast when the lobby is full and loud as hell.
  80.  # 80
    We could certainly do a better job of self-policing noise levels. I talked to one of the guards last year and that is the only thing they were told to intervene over in the lobby. He said he liked working that week and that the con guests were "better than most" - probably meaning "more interesting than most". Apparently Gen Con followed a big veteran's reunion last year that got drunk and rowdy every night at ES. Poor hotel...

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