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  1.  # 1
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      CommentAuthorfnord3125
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     # 2
    I'm going to join you in the summoning. Especially if the Superintendent-less play is viable for Classroom Deathmatch as well. I'm highly interested in trying either or both of these games at some point, but considering that my usual gaming group is me and just two of my friends, it's currently impossible. I'd be Superintendent, and there would be two PCs, and we need at least 3 so that everyone can have both a Best Friend and Rival.
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      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     # 3
    I too summon a bump upon this thread (he'll probably be in a day or two or something).
  2.  # 4
    You bastards. I'm totally working on Nun Shooter Victory right now. I have no time for Panty Explosion questions.

    ... actually, I think Filip is right. I think I've promised to post GM-free Panty Explosion rules/guidelines a few times in the last year. Let me finish up what I'm working on right now, and I'll post something. Give me a few hours.
  3.  # 5
    I'm going to start typing now, but I may not finish this before I go to sleep.

    Very shortly after releasing Panty Explosion I discovered that (for me) the game worked very well without a designated Superintendent. I was mostly doing store demos and convention games at the time, playing with people who didn't know anything about the game. This was different from the play testing Matt and I had been doing earlier in the year. Different circumstances, plus I had developed different methods for playing, presenting and facilitating the game. It shouldn't have come as a surprise that because of this the game itself changed.

    One of the things that I noticed fairly quickly was that when the game was working well and all the players had a good understanding of who their characters where and what their story was, the role of the Superintendent became almost superfluous. What I mean is that most of the time I would find myself sitting quietly at the table watching everyone else play, occasionally answering a question or providing some flavor for a scene. This became a reoccurring theme in the game I facilitated. As the Superintendent I would start off by explaining how to play the game and setting up the first scene. After that the players would mostly take over, and I usually wouldn't get to give much input until the end of the game, where I would take the role of the Demon and roll some dice. And more and more often, I found the players were doing that part as well!

    I should make it clear that I wasn't sitting quietly because I was bored or didn't know how to participate. Rather, these games became the kind of ideal situations that designers hope for, where the player immediately grasp how the game is supposed to work and be played, and the session itself gains a life of it's own and no longer requires your input. That's good. Shit, it's great! But it occurred to me that it didn't really leave much for the Superintendent to do. It was fine for me, as the games creator, to sit back and enjoy other people playing my game. But for another Superintendent? That experience might not be so much fun.

    I think it might help for me to talk a little bit about the role of the Superintendent in Panty Explosion (and Classroom Deathmatch). It's easy to call the Superintendent a GM, but that may set up a false expectation. The Superintendent has a few different duties:

    The Superintendent creates the School.
    The Superintendent is in charge of the Demon.
    The Superintendent is in charge of framing scenes.
    The Superintendent decides when Agendas have been resolved.

    Creating the School and deciding when Agendas resolve are pretty minor duties. One is done before the game starts and very often involves the participation of the other players. The other is largely decided by the other players, and only requires the Superintendents agreement. Framing Scenes is an important part of the game, and is one of the two tools that the Superintendent has for shaping the games story. But players can also frame scenes. The Demon is the only real power that the Superintendent has. The Superintendent gets a pool of Demon dice to create monsters and other challenges for the other players to face. These dice are what gives the Superintendent power and authority in the game.

    It became apparent very quickly that (as I said before) a game of Panty Explosion that was going well didn't need a Superintendent. I don't mean that the responsibilities of a Superintendent could be ignored, just that a single player didn't have to dedicate them selves to the job. I discovered that it was very easy to spread the weight of the Superintendent role around the entire group.

    The way I've been playing the game with both my friends and new players, the way I've been introducing it to new players, is to have all players share the responsibilities of framing scenes and controlling the demon. The common question I get from people who have played the game is how do you build a story without a central Superintendent to guide the game. What they forget (or missed in the first place maybe) is that the story in a game of Panty Explosion is made up of two parts, the Students Agendas and the confrontation with the Demon. So each scene in the game needs to address one of these two parts, with a preference for resolving Agendas. So what a game of Panty Explosion is going to look like is a series of scenes strung togetehr, each scene addressing one or more of the Students Agendas. Some of these scenes are going to be about the Demon, but really the Demon is just there to provide antagonism. To keep the Students from completing their Agendas.
  4.  # 6
    Continued ...

    So once you can see that, playing the game is pretty simple. Players frame scenes where they can address their Agendas, and other players provide antagonism either with the Demon or just by playing their own Students. Connecting these scenes togetehr creates a story and eventually leads to the confrontation with the Demon. Someone needs to be in charge of keeping track of the Demon dice. I usually put a big pool of dice in the middle of the table to represent the total Demon dice. Any player can act on the Demons turn and use dice from the pool. Once the pool is down to about a third of the dice, I tell the players that we need to head into the final encounter with the demon. At this point one or two of the players usually take charge of the Demon, describing the scene and dictating all the demons actions.

    In a one off game this method will usually result in an entirely improvised game with just 2 or 3 really intense scenes. For multiple session games the players will often do some planning between sessions, and you'll start to see elaborate plots and relationships unfold. The Demon will often develop a personality and a theme, even if it's being controlled be several different players.

    When I tell people about this style of play, they often complain that it won't create a good story, or that it will be confusing. I've found the opposite to be true. What you need are a group of players that are willing to share and are open to improvisation. These are things that Panty Explosion forces on it's players anyway, and I think that's part of the reason this play style has been so successful for me over the last year or so. If anything, Panty Explosion is about compromise and the realization that not getting what you want can sometimes be better then getting exactly what you ask for.

    That's pretty much it. No rules and no real guidelines, just a rambling example. Sorry. At this point you may be scratching your head and wondering why the version of Panty Explosion that you know sounds completely different from the one I seem to be playing. As I said before, the game has changed for me. This is how I play it now, and I find it very rewarding.

    Hope this helps.

    Jake
  5.  # 7
    Shit, I forgot the important part. Playing like this frees me up from being the Superintendent and allows me to lead the game by playing a Student instead. I find this is much more helpful for teaching new players how to play and how to use their agendas and the scene framing rules to create stories and drive the game in interesting directions.

    And it's more fun for me.

    Jake
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      CommentAuthorfnord3125
    • CommentTimeJun 4th 2008
     # 8
    Any suggestions pertaining to Classroom Deathmatch? It's been awhile since I've read the book, but I seem to recall some duties that seem to require a GM-like figure a bit more, things that I apparently thought ought to be secret?
  6.  # 9
    Let me get back to you on that. I play Classroom Deathmatch the same way, but there are a few obvious differences that are worth addressing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfnord3125
    • CommentTimeJun 5th 2008
     # 10
    Thanks! I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I've really been wanting to run CD for awhile now, because both one of my best friends and I really liked the Battle Royale novel, but like I said, with my normal 3 person playgroup, it just isn't possible.
  7.  # 11
    Um, there's an rpg called 'Pany Explosion'?

    WTF?
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      CommentAuthorfnord3125
    • CommentTimeJun 5th 2008
     # 12
    Damn right there is.
  8.  # 13
    It's a hybrid title of two staples of the psychic schoolgirl genre: panties showing as the highest point of embarrassment for the girls, and using mindpowers to explode things (like heads). Emily Care Boss suggested the title, I believe. It also totally sounds like a title translated from Japanese. :)
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      CommentAuthorDeBracy
    • CommentTimeJun 5th 2008
     # 14
    Yesterday, when I signed up for an account on here, I was sure I had something to say about all of this. Today I find myself sitting here just thinking "Yeah... just like that." I've only run three games of Panty Explosion so far and in all three of them I sat there so full of envy (and awesome, mind you) - the players got all the good action! Okay, so I had a pretty neat demon and did some nasty cool things but still.

    My only problem with going GMless is that I'd have to come up with an Agenda and... I've got kinda crappy instincts for what kind of Agendas work well in play. That's a part of the game I'd really wanna see fleshed out in a new edition.

    Another thing that might be good is a more hands-on approach to creating the demon. Right now the text has me guessing that I should assign 15 dice like I was creating a schoolgirl... but that just guessing. It turned out to be a good size pool for my one-shots and there's no problem in just throwing more dice in there but it'd be nice to be able to make out the designer's thoughts and intentions a bit easier. :)
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      CommentAuthorfnord3125
    • CommentTimeJun 5th 2008
     # 15
    if it sounds feasible to run CD gmless with no prep i might have to add it to my list of possibilities for my Gen Con Pity Party. i don't think playing CD light-hearted and campy is the BEST way to do it, but i think it's an option, and one a certain type of friend of mine would probably enjoy.
  9.  # 16
    Posted By: DeBracyI've only run three games of Panty Explosion so far and in all three of them I sat there so full of envy (and awesome, mind you) - the players got all the good action! Okay, so I had a pretty neat demon and did some nasty cool things but still.


    Right. That's the problem that wasn't apparent to me during the play test and early games The game works fine for the Students, but it's a bit dull for the Superintendent (who really is not a GM at all). This is what led me to changing the way I play the game, as described above. Of course, you can totally go nuts with the Demon and do all kinds of fun stuff, but I personally like to let the Students provide their own drama.

    Posted By: DeBracyI've got kinda crappy instincts for what kind of Agendas work well in play. That's a part of the game I'd really wanna see fleshed out in a new edition.


    Noted. There's a lot you can do with Agendas that is implied but not solidly presented in the game text. This is something that will change eventually. Agendas are the core that the rest of the game hangs off of.

    Posted By: DeBracyAnother thing that might be good is a more hands-on approach to creating the demon. Right now the text has me guessing that I should assign 15 dice like I was creating a schoolgirl... but that just guessing. It turned out to be a good size pool for my one-shots and there's no problem in just throwing more dice in there but it'd be nice to be able to make out the designer's thoughts and intentions a bit easier. :)


    Is that not clear? Sorry. Yes, the Demon gets 15 dice, plus extra dice for each unresolved Agenda. The Demon gets more dice if one of the Students uses psychic powers.

    Continued...
  10.  # 17
    Filip, I think that before I answer you I should say that comments I made above are neither rules nor guidelines, just an explanation of how I currently play the game.

    Posted By: Filip LuszczykThe "when the game was working well" part seems tricky to me.


    What I meant by "when the game was working well" was when all the players understand the rules and want to play the game. This doesn't have anything to do with consensus. It's just a matter of each player understanding how to play.

    Posted By: Filip LuszczykAlso, my guts tell me that in actual play you might be doing something not mentioned above, due to it being just so obivous for you. Apparently, you're acting as a facilitator, being the person who provides and explains the rules. This alone gives you a lot of authority in the group. As you mention, you're the one telling the players when to start the final encounter.


    The point is that it doesn't matter who is in charge of these specific duties. It doesn't have to be the Superintendent. The duties can easily be distributed among other players. As long as the players are aware that these duties need to be taken care of, it doesn't matter who does the job. Because A lot of the games I facilitate in this way are for new players I do have to take a kind of central role, telling them when the final encounter can start or how to frame a new scene.

    Posted By: Filip LuszczykI wonder whether there are other areas where you're effectively in charge. If there are, without it being clear who in the group has the final authority when it comes to those matters (e.g. the game designer at the table), your experience might be difficult to replicate. And if so, having those responsibilities clearly distributed could be integral to "the game working well", I guess.


    I don't think there needs to be any kind of final authority at all. As I said in my earlier post, there are four things that the Superintendent does during the game. As long as the other players are willing to do these things, there's no reason for a single player to take the Superintendent role. All the players need is a clear understanding of what the superintendent duties are, and an agreement that they will all work togetehr to fulfill them.

    Posted By: Filip LuszczykDo you know about someone else trying the same method without you at the table? How did it go?


    Just the games I've been in. Both of the regular groups I've played with over the last year have played this way. In both cases it went very well. Both of these groups were very aware of how the game worked, and I definitely wasn't the facilitator or central player in eitehr of those ongoing campaigns. What I mean is that thee players didn't look to me for guidance in the way you were describing before.

    Posted By: Filip Luszczyk1. Normally, the Superintendent narrates the results of all NPC actions. Without a single one, should the player narrate the results when spending Demon Dice, or should his Best Friend or Rival do it?


    I don't know. It could work both ways, and I think I've played it both ways. I think the right answer here is to go with whatever is the most fun.

    Posted By: Filip LuszczykIf more than one player wants to spend Demon Dice at the same time, what to do?


    They could take turns? Or work together to frame the action?

    Posted By: Filip Luszczyk How to handle side conflicts (with this method, are there any conflicts other than those with the Demon and between the Students themselves, in the first place)?


    When you say side conflicts, what do you exactly mean? Pretty much every conflict in the game is either a demon conflict or a conflict between students. There isn't really much besides that.

    Posted By: Filip LuszczykSince everybody can control the adversity all the time, are there some things you do (or specifically don't ever do) to avoid hitting the Czege Principle?


    I think the really obvious key to this is that you don't have the same person creating the adversity and the resolution. I guess I didn't explicitly say this, so let me do so now. The way I'm proposing playing allows a player to frame a scene allowing her or another player to address their Agenda, and another player (or multiple players) providing conflict to keep them from doing this. So, for example, I frame a scene that i hope will allow me to address my "Murder my father and steal his psychic energy" Agenda. You and another player decide to provide some adversity. You decide to use some Demon dice to set up a conflict, while the other player decides to start a conflict between my student and her student.
  11.  # 18
    CDM works a little differently from Panty Explosion. The Superintendent can be treated as a regular character, and can go marching onto the battleground with a gun and hand to murder students. The Superintendent also has access to a wide variety of resources including other Students, JSDF soldiers, robot guns and attack dogs. It's a mistake to think of the Superintendent as a GM. Instead, the Superintendent is a player that has access to a wider variety of resources. That being said, you really do need at least three players beyond the Superintendent. Just so the other players can have enough Best Friends and Rivals. In CDM players share scene framing power with the Superintendent. So players can frame new scenes at any time, and introduce whatever characters, resources or plot devices they want. So the advancement of the game is already up to all the players, not just the Superintendent. The purpose of the Superintendent is to provide adversity. To make sure that the Students have an awful time and to keep them from getting the upper hand. Because of this getting rid of the Superintendent becomes problematic. You can do it in exactly the same way I described above for Panty Explosion, but what you get is a game that lacks outside adversity and makes team work problematic. One of the strengths of the game is the idea that characters can benefit from working together, but eventually must turn against each other. Without a Superintendent, you don't have much to work with each other against. In a larger game, with 5 or 6 players, this could totally work. In a two or three player game this falls apart pretty quickly.

    I've done this with a 4 player group once. What we did is agree at the beginning that this would be a pure PVP game. No JSDF soldiers. No robot guns or attack dogs. Just murderous students trying to kill each other. The result was a good short game that played out more as a tactical stealth mission then anything else. Our chosen Students barely interacted with each other. Interestingly, we only had a single student die (I mean, a single student played by one of us. We shot down a dozen or so kids that were played as NPCs in various scenes. This totally worked and was a lot of fun, but it was a little disappointing to know that my Tori was never going to get to team up with Aprils Goro. taking sides with so few players would totally kill our balance. We only played for about 4 hours, so I don't know how the game would have done long term.
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      CommentAuthorDeBracy
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2008
     # 19
    The only two jobs in question are basically running the Demon and running NPCs since everything else is well suited to be done collectively.

    I kinda lean towards the boring and non-helpful answer that things would probably just "work out" if you got going. The player who brings in the NPC in a scene could run it for duration of it. If some PC isn't present then it might be suitable for that PCs player to take that job. But since the conflict rules are constructed the way they, it might turn out that the player of the PC not present is still the most active player in the scene due to describing outcome for being best friend or rival of those PCs in the scene... so there are no guarantees for anything really.

    Something that might ease up the running of the Demon is to have the group create it together. Then everyone knows what it's like and don't have to hesitate too much when there's a good spot for the Demon to appear. As with NPCs, it'd work fine with letting one player run the Demon for the duration of the scene, or just pass that duty on when you run out of juice. That's a thing that happens too after all, and hence I'd say it might be a idea to distribute those jobs too rigidly.
  12.  # 20
    Posted By: Filip LuszczykHmm, so after all the default for Superintendent-free game is effectively designing one's own rules hack. Oh, well...


    Not really. I mean, what I'm presenting here aren't rules or even guidelines, just an example of how I play. But it is an example. I'm not saying "hack your own rules". I'm saying "do as I do".

    Posted By: Filip LuszczykOk. So once the players are aware there are jobs to be taken care of, how do you decide who does which job? Even if it doesn't matter who, someone needs to take them nonetheless, and I imagine there would be some problems if due to the failure of telepathy at the table no player took one of the jobs or more than one wanted to take care of the same thing.


    You talk about it. At the beginning of the game you sit down with everyone and make sure everyone knows what the Superintendent duties are, and how they need to be taken care of. At that point individual players can step forward and say "I'd like to do this", or you can come to an understanding that these are tasks that everyone can participate in, and as long as someone (or multiple someones) step forward when they need to be done, the game will proceed smoothly. It's pretty easy to remind everyone that it's okay to jump in and participate. It's also okay to say "I don't really have an idea here, but it is time for the demon to do something. Would someone like to take a demon action"?

    In my experience this hasn't been a problem, even in games where I'm mostly silent. Players are always on the ball and ready to control the demon and frame scenes.

    Posted By: Filip LuszczykI mean those conflicts not related to the Demon and not between Students, when you normally give the opposition the default 15 dice. Teachers, NPC Students, parents and all.


    Those conflicts. Thanks. These can be treated exactly like any other conflict, with the understanding that these extra conflict dice are a resource (like the demon dice) that any player can use to start a conflict.I don't use these dice very much (if ever) because I like to focus on Student conflict and Demon conflicts. But you could certainly start a conflict this way. It's just another tool that every player has to know is available to them.

    Posted By: DeBracyI kinda lean towards the boring and non-helpful answer that things would probably just "work out" if you got going.


    Me too. Which is why I'm not presenting any of this as rules. Just observations and examples.

    Posted By: DeBracyThe player who brings in the NPC in a scene could run it for duration of it. If some PC isn't present then it might be suitable for that PCs player to take that job. But since the conflict rules are constructed the way they, it might turn out that the player of the PC not present is still the most active player in the scene due to describing outcome for being best friend or rival of those PCs in the scene... so there are no guarantees for anything really.


    This totally works, and is usually what happens in this type of game. Sometimes a player controlling an NPC (which is really now a PC) will be the best Friend or Rival of one or more of the other Students in the scene. But that would have been the case if they were playing their Student PC in the scene, so it doesn't really change much.

    Posted By: DeBracySomething that might ease up the running of the Demon is to have the group create it together.


    That can be a lot of fun. I've done this before. very often in these games we don't create a demon at all, and the demon just kind of naturally evolves over the coarse of the game with input from all the players. Eventually a player will introduce the demon directly into play and we'll all get a look at it.