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Games and Gaming: What makes a good Scifi game?

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorjmhpfan
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 1
    I am talking about space ships and other planets but other than that what do you like to see in your Scifi games? Are aliens a must or are they stupid? What about terraforming and genetic alterations? What is important to you and what do you want to see?
    •  
      CommentAuthorHexabolic
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 2
    Sci Fi is such a broad field, it's hard to know how to answer. Space Opera is probably the easiest to port to a game environment inasmuch as it's an adventure genre that tends to play fast and loose with physics. Another is post-apocalypse. These aren't the only ones, but even in these two, there's a shit-ton of ways you could come at it. From a literary standpoint, the touchstone for space opera is Dune. For post-apoc, it's probably the Road Warrior.

    At least as a starting point for this discussion, why not list a few things you like? What waves your flags?
  3.  # 3
    So, Shock is the game that got me really thinking about this. What makes sci-fi sci-fi? (Full disclosure per the recommending friends' games thread - once I spent the night at Joshua's house and his cat jumped on my chest all night long)

    After having read Shock and thought about the sci-fi I liked and the sci-fi I thought was crap, part of what makes it sci-fi is that it's taking some idea, some real issue that we know and can relate to, and flinging it into the future with some kind of crazy circumstances. Say machines have taken over the world, or there's synthetic humans, or whatever. Everything else is just trappings and color.

    And I think that makes the "sci-fi" part of the "sci-fi game." Like I think Blue Planet is good sci-fi. When you add the game part though you have to look at mechanics, how it pushes the sci fi, all that.
  4.  # 4

    The cat loves you.

    • CommentAuthorchearns
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 5
    Posted By: jmhpfanI am talking about space ships and other planets but other than that what do you like to see in your Scifi games?


    When I play a Science Fiction game I want there to be some actual science fiction in there. I want there, to be at the basis, a question of science being raised, and then I want to explore it's impact on humanity.

    So, other planets for the sake of other planets bores me. But other planets to explore what it means to be a human with humans existing on more than one planet might be interesting.

    Aliens same thing. Just for the sake of being there, boring. Aliens to see what that would mean as a person to encounter a truly alien species or culture (say one that rendered you and yours obsolete, that would be interesting).

    It's where games like Cyberpunk go way wrong for me (cyberware being just a way to give your character superpowers), and games like Shock: Social Science Fiction go way right for me.

    I guess what it breaks down to is this, science-fiction, the setting, does nothing for me. Science-fiction, the impact of science on the lives of people, has potential.
    • CommentAuthorjmhpfan
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 6
    I just finished listening to the Quarter Share series over at podio books and I use to play EVE online and I keep thinking that there is a game in there somewhere that would be fun. Maybe something based off of the Burning Wheel but not as gonzo as Burning Empires. Something that lays somewhere in the middle ground. I like the idea of tall ships in space. You are a long way from anywhere where ever you are.
    • CommentAuthorakooser
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 7
    Here is a list of sci-fi games that I like:
    Shock - engages the social side of science fiction and there is a cat involved somehow.
    3:16 - it's what 40k should have been but never will be
    Spirit of the Far Future (more pulpish) - SotC hack for Traveller, pulp sci-fi
    Sorcery Traveller hack by Christopher Kubasik that is kicking around here on the forums
    Burning Empires - ... not sure what to say about it, you are fighting for a lost cause and a doomed planet.

    Traveller - but it needs to be hacked, see above


    ara
    • CommentAuthorTulpa
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 8
    There doesn't exist a sci fi game today that can do something like Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. If it did, it'd be a story game about finding out who your mother is.
  9.  # 9

    Tulpa, can you explain more (if t's not a derail)?

    • CommentAuthorJDCorley
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 10
    Science fiction is such a broad term anymore that it doesn't really make sense to say "oh, well, your science fiction game should be this". It incorporates clear fantasies (most space opera), straightforward action-adventure, and thoughtful what-iffery. Purists might complain but it is what it is.
  11.  # 11
    In general, I'm in Christopher's camp that sci fi is best when it's addressing impacts of scientific insights or devices on a recognizable society of (or, more generally, on the relationships between) human(ish) beings. Future, past--no matter: the science or innovation elements drive the narrative, and the narrative theme involves feelings and consequences.

    That said, I love me some way-out, hard sci fi that's mostly about "whiz bang" or using it as a wrapper for theological or metaphysical contemplations. I think 2001 is a solid example of the latter, and I love it, and yet I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to how to "capture" its scope in an RPG. Yeah, you can do the "survival horror" element--Man V Machine--or you can noodle with the inter-crew conflicts around HAL--Man v Man; subset: Paternity v Authority--but trying to get at BOTH of those AND the whole story of the monoliths, in particular the last 45 minutes or so (the Peaking Period, for you acidheads)... good luck.

    Space westerns/space opera, I think, are an entirely different genre, and in fact are sub-genres of Westerns and Operas. Ditto for The Hero's Quest... IN SPAAAACE! The science is color, whether it bothers to be "scientific" at all. I'd take all those off the table, to keep this thread from turning into a "my favorite d20 supplement that does Novel Series X," but I'm not the OP.

    Finally, "proper" sci fi's greatest gift, to the reader, is that it helps one think way outside of daily routine and situations, while not utterly divorcing the experience to the point where it's pure escapism (whiz bang, again). The Diamond Age interests me not only because of its rich (technology changed) tapestry of cultures, but mainly because I could theoretically have to deal, some day, with gray sludge nano outbreaks or tech-assited telepathy or street gang crime with biohazard weapons... never too soon to think ahead, right?
    • CommentAuthorMike Sands
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 12
    Veles,

    You could use Shock: to run something like Wolfe's Book of the New Sun.

    You'd run it as a long sequence of vignettes, which isn't too far from how the stories are told anyhow, and the shocks, issues and praxes might change along the way as different *tagonists appeared and had their time in the spotlight of the story. The steadily increasing collection of minutiae would mirror the way Wolfe slowly reveals aspects of the world, too.

    Re: what makes a good scifi game?

    Nobody has mentioned pages and pages of tables with stats for rayguns!
    • CommentAuthorTulpa
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 13
    It kind of is a derail. The appeal of Book of the New Sun is that it's a really complicated literary puzzle. There are so many layers of what is happening in the book. The first sentence plainly states the plot of the entire book but almost no one would notice this or understand it on first reading. The time paradoxes in the book are so elegantly dealt with that most people don't even realize how the book actually ends, or that Time Travel was involved at all. It's a lot like that Heinlein short story, "--All You Zombies--" but without ever explicitly coming out as such.

    There are other things about it that would be hard to replicate in a game. It is common that what we assume is a metaphor by the narrator turns out to be an exacting description. There is a mausoleum that the character was fond of visiting in his adolescence, and I still have not figured out whom it contains, though it is obvious that this would unlock yet more secrets about the book.

    So, a game about discovering who your mother is, using myth and parable as a narrative technique.
    • CommentAuthorLogos7
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 14
    Sci Fi is fantasy pretending that its not.

    What I expect from Science Fiction is that it will present me with fantastic things and then pretend that they are not fantastic. No we're not teleporting, we disemble the molecules and send them down on an energy carrior wave and then reassemble them. No were not fighting demons, were fighting aliens, or trans dimensional life forms , or something of the like. This leads to all kind of human questions because even if something is Fantastic in sci fi, it shouldn't be beyond understanding ( how do dragons and honeybees fly are variations on the same question but the answer to each depending on the genre is different, dragons fly cause there fricking dragons, and bumblebees fly because of the turbulence aerodynamics or something, ).

    As for what makes a good sci fi game? I would wager alot of the same stuff that makes a good fantasy game, see simularities and success between star wars systems and everything else. Someone's parable is that any good system can be made to run starwars is perhaps revealing because its exactly saying that the science fiction in the story of star wars doesn'treally matter. Whether its indentured servants or droids, 6 shooters or blasters, science fiction is the genre pretending that its not a genre for the most part.

    my two sence. I think a good sci fi game itself will focus on providing either a sim or narrative experance of people in wierd and vagulely explained sitautions.
  15.  # 15

    Sci Fi is fantasy pretending that its not.

    Bubghuh

    Dude, did you read any of this thread? Or any of the thousands of discussions in the history of the genre?

    how do dragons and honeybees fly are variations on the same question but

    No, they're not. Further discussion of aerodynamics is off-topic, so we can discuss in whispers if you like. But most importantly, how a dragon flies doesn't make it science fiction. The naturalistic, "repeatable experiment" nature of the question might make it be, though, if that's a substantive part of a story. Particularly if it's not just nerdwank and actually says something about the (real) universe. Beowulf and Bilbo sure don't care how dragons fly, though. It doesn't matter what they Reynolds Number of a dragon is. It matters that they fly because they burn villages and hoard gold and it can do whatever it wants.

    Someone's parable is that any good system can be made to run starwars is perhaps revealing because its exactly saying that the science fiction in the story of star wars doesn'treally matter. Whether its indentured servants or droids, 6 shooters or blasters, science fiction is the genre pretending that its not a genre for the most part.

    That's Clinton R. Nixon's premise. That's because Star Wars is fantasy with blasters and spaceships. It's science fiction as much as, say, Deadwood, if the final episode had shown it to all be a time travel adventure.

    A useful distinction that I find:

    Fantasy, you might say, is interested in stories about heroes and, as such, is usually cast in a mythological time (Once upon a time, maybe, or perhaps a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away). Science fiction is concerned with the movement of whole societies. It's concerned with humanity, not just a person. It's about the ideas, the speculation, and the metaphor about the human condition. It can be as broad or thoughtful as you like.

    I'm not super-comfortable with Fantasy fiction. I've read some of the Earthsea books and the Chronicles of Narnia. I've read Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and Beowulf, and then start grasping at straws... um... A Midsummer Night's Dream? Someone more comfortable with Fantasy can probably illuminate us on its salient features. But what I'm familiar with has everything to do arationality — the universe works through high-level systems like Magical Energy, or even the caprice of the gods. Usually, in my experience, "how the Universe works" isn't explored too deeply, except to say that there are beings at some point that make it happen.

    Science fiction assumes a naturalistic view of the Universe. There are laws in the very fabric of things that lack agendas or personalities. They cover physics, chemistry, biology, and often human interactions. We live in a Universe that doesn't care about us, none of us have a destiny, and yet we exist and have to make sense of it all.

    These are not definitional and they identify fiction (both Fantasy and Science Fiction) that I enjoy more than anything else. But categorization isn't that interesting to me anyway. Finding ways to communicate what we want from each other, though, that's interesting.

    So, Josh is talking about "tall ships in space". Travel between stars is one of those things that gets glossed over a lot. I'm reading A Deepness in the Sky by Vernor Vinge right now. In it, he proposes that there is a vast, thousands-of-years-old trading network that spans the stars. They use ramscoops (a reasonably plausible mode of interstellar transport) and freeze themselves in shifts during the centuries of travel it takes for anyone to get there. It's a long way from "tall ships", but it's well-reasoned.

    It sounds like that's not what you want. You want space battles that aren't over in seconds, and you want boarding parties, and you want wizened captains with tales to tell. What you want, I'm guessing, is space fantasy, á la Star Wars or Firefly. There's certainly good fun to be had there, but your question still isn't whether on not to have aliens. It's what you want to say. If you want to talk about heroic space captains, Burning Wheel is probably good, as is the Solar System. They're both good for character-driven fantasy.

    But I'm also curious what else you want.

    •  
      CommentAuthorGraham
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 16
    I want to visit strange worlds and talk to inhabitants with bizarre customs. Basically, I want to play The Culture as an RPG.

    Graham
  17.  # 17

    Totally.

    •  
      CommentAuthorRemi
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 18
    Graham, Sign in Stranger is exactly that. I mean, it's coming to grips with one dominant and several subordinate civilizations over a long period of time, but it does an excellent job of forcing you to confront the miscommunications and . . . alienness of new cultures. It's neat. Although it has probably changed a lot since I played it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJohn Powell
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008 edited
     # 19
    In my experience sci-fi roleplaying games by default do space-opera (Firefly) or space-fantasy (Star Wars). Harder scifi settings like Transhuman Space are never directly supported in the rules. Any hard sf game is purely the result of a social contract between the players agreeing to keep to real or at least not impossible science in the setting.*

    That's the past, and to my knowledge the present. What's the future? I don't know.

    For myself I like to run games that are thematically space-opera, but with the least number of pseudo-science trappings possible. My sf games usually include faster than light travel, but not artificial gravity, anti-gravity, time-travel, psionic powers or gods, ghosts and demons.

    *Or at least what they think is real science - after all precious few of us are scientists, and even those may not know much beyond their own fields.
    • CommentAuthoravram
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 20

    Tulpa, I don't know if a group of players could build as well as Gene Wolfe did, but I an imagine an RPG that attempts to do the things Wolfe did, which may be as much as we can hope for. It would probably involve the gaming group deciding on certain themes and events ahead of time, and then riffing around them like jazz musicians in the course of play.

    • CommentAuthorDogui
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 21
    Everything that´s inside Shock without the stupid personal pronouns is what makes a good sci-fi game.

    No, really, play Shock and you´ll play sci-fi like you read in Ursula LeGuin, or Zelazny, or Simmons, or...

    And I am most certainly not a friend of Joshua.
    • CommentAuthorTulpa
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2008
     # 22
    Avram I am well aware of this, not everyone can come up with multiple solutions to century old unsolved crimes from very small amounts of evidence immediately after hearing these crimes described. Gene Wolfe has the mind of Sherlock Holmes, and he uses it to write sci fi. Players should not be expected to approach that level of brilliance, but I think the great things about his style can be taken into a game.

    The nice thing about Gene Wolfe's books is that it often feels like he is playing a game with his readers. Oh, another thought. An easy way to model his fiction would be to overtly make a game structured on Apollonian myths, combined with Shock:'s Shocks. Shock largely doesn't fit because the protagonist/antagonist model makes no sense in his stories. (Shock: Mechanical Vehicles replaced by bioengineered animals)
    • CommentAuthorzygomar
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008 edited
     # 23
    The so peculiar atmosphere one can find in Wolfe's TBotNS is linked to very alternative tropes described in fuzzy blurry tones, frex colorful characters whose "goals" ,feels and nature (robot, clone, human, god ?) are secret even to themselves. Like in Soldier of Mists, the narrator seems to surf on a world of uncertainty and varying level of reality. Even the narrative line isn't obvious.
    It's quite a challenge to put it back in game terms.
    • CommentAuthorTulpa
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008
     # 24
    It kind of makes me think of Philip K Dick's work when put in that way, but there are very distinct differences. Wolfe's stuff is utterly alien much of the time, while Dick's work is very human. I should probably spin this thread of discussion into a new topic.
  25.  # 25

    Oh, totally! Sign In Stranger is really perfect for intercultural confusion. Tom Russell is writing a game called Culture Clash that's for that kind of thing, too, where cultures are created as you go. Sadly, there's a band called Culture Clash, fronted by a guy named Tom Russell that's interfering with my Googlage.

    Also, I seem to have offended Dogui/Guido 40 up there with gender neutrality! I win! Also, I have no idea who he is.

    • CommentAuthorelliott20
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008
     # 26
    Posted By: TulpaThere doesn't exist a sci fi game today that can do something like Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. If it did, it'd be a story game about finding out who your mother is.

    how wonderfully freudian. I'm sure it's all about sex after that.
    • CommentAuthorTulpa
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2008
     # 27
    I don't think the protagonist ever had sex with his mother, but I only realized who his mother was on my last reading!
    • CommentAuthorelliott20
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2008
     # 28
    ... that is definitely not what I meant... now I feel like a pervert.
  29.  # 29
    To me, a good sci-fi game is one where the science elements aren't just painted on. I can enjoy a decent space opera, but I can't enjoy space opera that claims to be serious science fiction.

    --Colin
    •  
      CommentAuthorJuddG
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2008 edited
     # 30
    Posted By: GrahamBasically, I want to play The Culture as an RPG.


    This would make you a "Player of Games"...

    ...but, oh heck yes! I have a lightly Transhumanist Sci-Fi setting for Solar System I have been kicking about forever that is very informed by the Culture and related series.
  31.  # 31
    Posted By: JuddGThis would make you a "Player of Games"...

    **shudder** One of his darkest ever. Last fiction work to literally make me want to kill the villain--not just like "What a fucker!" but, like, if he appeared before me I'd prolly get killed trying to tear his face off.

    I DON'T want to play any game anywhere near that! But The Culture Universe would be a great general setting. I'd be grabbing Hero System to run that, with a lot of various powers toggled off and some caps on others. The PCs are all members of Special Circumstances and... oh, wait, no! Dude, it SO would work with IAWA! (Everything needs to be IAWA.)

    Posted By: Joshua A.C. NewmanUsually, in my experience, "how the Universe works" isn't explored too deeply, except to say that there are beings at some point that make it happen.

    I'm not sure that holds for fantasy, because look at the Chronicles of Amber--yes, the world is "made" by entities, but about half the book is about the metaphysics of it all, with the plot largely driven by changes in the very pattern of the Universe. And you gotta admit that Tolkien invested a LOT of thought and energy into his metaphysics (Silmarillion).

    Conversely, I don't think sci fi necessarily requires a "rational" metaphysics at all. Maybe so-called "hard" sci fi, I'll grant that. But there's most definitely something "out there," making reality, in stuff like 2001/2010.

    No, your principle dichotomy is, I believe, the sole axis of distinction: sci fi is about society, human relations, psychology in general, while fantasy is very driven by character and interpersonal issues.

    And, yep, some blend both. Must be why booksellers just lump them onto the same shelf: VERY hard to distinguish some fantasy from sci fi, and vice versa.
    (Aside: I always forget--see this post--but I believe the "hoity toity" science fiction scholars believe the proper abbreviation to be "sf"... but maybe the preponderance of speculative fiction makes that dated? I'm going off Fred Chappell, circa 1992.)
  32.  # 32

    I'm not sure that holds for fantasy, because look at the Chronicles of Amber--yes, the world is "made" by entities, but about half the book is about the metaphysics of it all, with the plot largely driven by changes in the very pattern of the Universe. And you gotta admit that Tolkien invested a LOT of thought and energy into his metaphysics (Silmarillion).

    I've got to take your word on this. I haven't read the Amber books and I can't get more than a couple of pages into the Silmarillion.

    Nonetheless, I think we agree: a meaningful distinction is that Fantasy and Science Fiction are both forms of Speculative Fiction. Fantasy is concerned with the development of an individual character and their ability to affect the world (which often relies on Hero Cycle kinds of mythological formats) whereas Science Fiction is primarily concerned with ideas about movements of societies, philosophies, and humanity as a whole, typically using characters as exeplars of those ideas.

    (Aside: I always forget--see this post--but I believe the "hoity toity" science fiction scholars believe the proper abbreviation to be "sf"... but maybe the preponderance of speculative fiction makes that dated? I'm going off Fred Chappell, circa 1992.)

    Yeah, well, as much as I care about the distinction, it's one that's largely ignored. "SF" and "Sci Fi" are used interchangeably by too many people. Maybe "Societal Speculative Fiction" or some crap.

    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2008
     # 33
    As required in secret story games coda A573B, I must now link to A short Culture RPG.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  34.  # 34
    Posted By: JuddG
    Posted By: GrahamBasically, I want to play The Culture as an RPG.


    This would make you a "Player of Games"...

    ...but, oh heck yes! I have a lightly Transhumanist Sci-Fi setting for Solar System I have been kicking about forever that is very informed by the Culture and related series.


    I hadn't read any of the Culture stuff until after I wrote the game, but I've been told that Sufficiently Advanced would be a decent choice for a game set there.
    • CommentAuthorTulpa
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2008
     # 35
    So, Joshua, what about a book involving a Hero's Journey where all of the characters are exemplars of philosophies and the movements of society? I actually think the Player of Games fit both these criteria quite well.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJuddG
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2008
     # 36
    Posted By: Colin_FredericksI hadn't read any of the Culture stuff until after I wrote the game, but I've been told thatSufficiently Advancedwould be a decent choice for a game set there.


    I will second that, and I will stipulate I know the author only by his reputation for charm and wild dancing - and yodeling. Lots of yodeling, I hear. (grin)
    • CommentAuthorDogui
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2008
     # 37
    Posted By: Joshua A.C. NewmanAlso, I seem to have offended Dogui/Guido 40 up there with gender neutrality! I win!


    Yeah, you win. Now you can go to bed happy.
  38.  # 38

    So, Joshua, what about a book involving a Hero's Journey where all of the characters are exemplars of philosophies and the movements of society? I actually think the Player of Games fit both these criteria quite well.

    Dunno! I'm not too terribly interested in making asymptotic distinctions, particularly around a book I haven't read.

  39.  # 39
    Posted By: jmhpfanI am talking about space ships and other planets but other than that what do you like to see in your Scifi games? Are aliens a must or are they stupid? What about terraforming and genetic alterations? What is important to you and what do you want to see?


    I'm a sucker for space suits. I like sci fi where you can put on a vac suit and float around in zero-g. I get cranky when every planet has a suspiciously breathable atmosphere.

    On the bigger scale, space opera is fun and all, but I'm in the "real" sci fi camp aka examination of possible truths/futures or putting real world issues into sharp relief by transplanting them into high contrast settings (hi Shock!). That's the direction I was heading with the InSpace adaptation of InSpectres.
    • CommentAuthorR00kie
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2008 edited
     # 40
    I think the thing which makes a good Sci-Fi novel is a strong 'What If?'

    What if?:
    Mankind discovered a a particular new technology? (e.g. Cheap Lightspeed Teleport)
    We could live forever?
    We had a machine that could talk to the dead?

    A great science fiction novel doesn't make its central 'What if' part of the back story. It permeates every nuance of the story. It affects the way characters behave, think and interact, what they buy and where they go. The story actually explores the deepest implications of that 'What If'

    I have no idea what makes a good sci-fi game - but I'm guessing the same applies. (By the way - my favourite Sci-Fi game setting is currently GURPS Transhuman Space, which fits this model, but I would never use GURPS to play in it.)
  41.  # 41
    Posted By: Joshua A.C. Newman

    Oh, totally!Sign In Strangeris really perfect for intercultural confusion.



    Oh why oh why won't that game come out? It makes me so sad and whiny, even if there are surely good reasons. But every time I see the name mentioned somewhere I have to double-check that it's still the same playtest version on the site. And every time I read it I am reminded of how wonderful it was to be twelve years old and reading Monica Hughes novels -- but then I can't figure out the central conflict resolution mechanic and I get sad again.

    As for the topic, I'm on the society angle but I see a lot of overlap. There's also some significant science fiction that is actually literally just fiction involving science, which I feel should still qualify, even if it is not particularly about human society at large, and is in fact often about individual relationships.

  42.  # 42

    There's also some significant science fiction that is actually literally just fiction involving science, which I feel should still qualify, even if it is not particularly about human society at large, and is in fact often about individual relationships.

    Daniel, can you give an example? The ones I'm thinking of off the top of my head are like Rudy Rucker, but he's way into the ideas and what the implications are for the whole universe. The scale of the relationships are small, but it's the whole big everything that he's really talking about.

    •  
      CommentAuthoreruditus
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2008
     # 43
    Not to be flippant but...

    Burning Empires.
    - Don
  44.  # 44

    Posted By: Joshua A.C. NewmanDaniel, can you give an example? The ones I'm thinking of off the top of my head are likeRudy Rucker, but he'swayinto the ideas and what the implications are for the whole universe. The scale of the relationships are small, but it's the whole big everything that he's really talking about.



    The book that came to mind was Titan, by I think Stephen Baxter. If you go by the very beginning and end of the book you could argue that 'he's really talking about' societies and universes and such, but to me the book was about a very specific set of human relationships and endeavors (which failed miserably, because humans are depressing and space is dangerous.) But it was also full of lots of 'hard science', that was not used to comment on the social interactions at all that I remember -- it was just that they were all scientists/astronauts and the task they were trying to perform involved science.

    I can see people reading the book differently, I suppose, but to me the science was entirely secondary, and so any statements the book was making about society were no different in character to those made in, like, Crime & Punishment or a Charles Dickens novel. But maybe that just means it wasn't actually a science fiction novel, and had been mislabelled, I don't know.
  45.  # 45

    because humans are depressing

    What does that mean? How does the book say it?

    Looking through the book, it still looks to me like it's about humanity's place in the Universe. The characters and their relationships are there to give scale and contrast. I've only glanced through, though.

    any statements the book was making about society were no different in character to those made in, like, Crime & Punishment or a Charles Dickens novel.

    At the bare minimum, that's OK by me. Are those statements (including the statments about the specific relationships) amplified by the discovery of extraterrestrial life? Or are does Baxter make statements about those relationships and society that couldn't have been made without?

    I don't know! I've only read little bits and scraps from the book just now and you've read the whole thing.

    (The spacecraft on the cover is absurd. Do they really fly a Shuttle all the way to Saturn? That's like trying to throw a baseball around the world.)

  46.  # 46
    Posted By: Joshua A.C. NewmanAt the bare minimum, that's OK by me. Are those statements (including the statments about the specific relationships) amplified by the discovery of extraterrestrial life? Or are does Baxter make statements about those relationships and society thatcouldn'thave been made without?


    In my opinion, the part about extraterrestrial life might as well be a different book. I doubt this was his intention; I am sure he intended to draw some parallels between the flight to Titan (yes, they do -- and yes, it is treated as approximately as difficult as you describe. The world has just nuked itself to death so the circumstances argue for a desperate effort of some kind.) But for me the entire message of relevance contained in the book, which is almost entirely an emotional message, is contained in the failure of what is essentially the last remnant of human civilization to avoid breaking down in entirely human ways, sabotaging the vanishingly small amount of hope that remains to them and making their last few weeks of life completely miserable. It's a very effective book, as a corrective to the kind of ridiculously heroic sci-fi tropes that ascribe superhuman resourcefullness and coolness under fire to the protagonists, seemingly at the convenience of the author. Most sci-fi books regularly have humans performing tasks that, while possible, require a perfect combination of circumstance and human ability; in Titan those tasks are presented as goals, and then shown to be totally unfeasible once actual humans (and to some degree, actual science) are introduced. The same cultural circumstances that create the need for heroic action make that heroic action impossible.

    The last section reads, consequently, like a deus ex machina that runs entirely counter to the core of the story. It turns out that all these failures were 'enough', from a point of view I can only describe as a kind of hallucinatory, narcissistic Darwinism, because the efforts involved resulted in the eventual recreation of carbon-based life -- I have a lot of trouble taking it seriously, even though it's certainly a very interesting set of chapters. It's kind of like a fever dream -- I could imagine the scenario playing out in the mind of the final surviving protagonist, right around the point where he died of exposure on the wasteland of the moon in question.

    So sure, if you manage to take the last part seriously, it could be seen as a comment on the rest of the story. If so it is not a very interesting comment. I found the rest of the novel extremely affecting, and part of that was because I saw it as engaging with the failures of heroic science fiction -- this alone would seem to suggest that it is in fact a work of science-fiction, which is kind of a strange way to qualify. But mostly it was affecting because of the story itself, which involved a lot of science, but not to my mind very much science fiction.
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      CommentAuthorJuddG
    • CommentTimeDec 23rd 2008
     # 47
    Posted By: Joshua A.C. Newman(The spacecraft on the cover is absurd. Do they really fly a Shuttle all the way to Saturn? That's like trying to throw a baseball around the world.)


    I get the feeling he was shooting for the Kon-Tiki of Space feel. Going to Saturn in a shuttle is more like crossing an Ocean in a wicker catamaran. Still, with enough Thor Heyerdahl, you can get it done.
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      CommentAuthorGraham
    • CommentTimeDec 23rd 2008 edited
     # 48
    One thing I find I'm resisting, in this thread, is the idea that any science fiction story should have X in it. Or, equally, that any one game is the science-fiction game.

    Like, Shock: is great. But I'd never want it to be the science fiction game. I'd like there to be lots of science fiction games, so Shock: does one thing, Burning Empires does another, and Apocalypse World lets you have sex in a nuclear wasteland.

    And I like science fiction that takes a science issue, and shows its impact on humanity, but I wouldn't want all science fiction to do that. I love Blake's Seven, for example, but that doesn't really have much science in it.

    So, yes, I'm wary of formulas. Not that we've had many formulas, in this thread, but I'm wary when we drift towards them.

    (Joshua, I'm not knocking Shock:, you understand)

    Graham
  49.  # 49

    Yeah, no offense taken, Graham. I want there to be other SF games out there, too. If I didn't, I wouldn't be writing more, and I wouldn't be linking enthusiastically to Sign In Stranger above. (I don't know enough about Burning Empires to say much about it, other than that it's a gorgeous book, and everything I've heard about it has that Luke lucidity that we love him for).

    Rob,

    the failure of what is essentially the last remnant of human civilization to avoid breaking down in entirely human ways

    ... is a wholly, 100% Science Fiction kind of thing to address. You can't address the end of the world without positing some sort of fantasy, a world-shaking thing. You might even call it a "shock".

    Oh! A good example! Glen and Randa is a movie from 1971 that posits the end of civilization and culture. The story is told almost entirely through the two eponymous characters and another person they meet. It's a very, very personal scale story, but it's really about humanity and culture. It's also up there with Silent Running as some of the saddest Science Fiction ever created, though Glen and Randa arrives at this weird, enlightened space by the end. I recommend it if you have a significant other and a cozy blanket to watch it under.

    What I'm saying is that the scale of the story is not definitional, nor are the width of the strokes in which the characters are delineated.

    A counterexample: Pigs in Heaven is straight up fiction (no speculation present) about the development of an unusual family. It's a story about a small number of very specific relationships that have very little impact on the rest of humanity. You can draw conclusions from it about the nature of family, about children and what they see in adults, about how adults sort of stumble through life succeeding to various non-optimal degrees, but fundamentally, it's about Turtle and Taylor. It's very personal and much of the joy comes from watching Turtle grow up, just like watching a real kid. The book is structured so that you share in the experience, more than enlightening commentary. As such, it has this sort of Will Eisner moral ambiguity to a lot of the events.

    Now, if we set such circumstances in an apocalypse, where the characters are the "last humans" or whatever, they suddenly represent humanity. They represent you and me. They represent all families everywhere because you've said, "These are the last people in the world [who matter]". Their actions either effect or are somehow representative of the rest of society. (The definition, of course, doesn't address the quality if implementation)

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      CommentAuthorHalfjack
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2008
     # 50
    JB Bell participated in a recent playtest run of Diaspora and pinned down what we're about in that game -- hubris. Thinking on that, while it's not a defining element of science fiction, it's a big deal in most great sf that I can think of. Maybe it's just a big deal in most great fiction, period, but speculating on advanced technology certainly shines a light on our hubris.
  51.  # 51

    Well, it's certainly a theme we come back to a lot. I find it to be a pretty tired theme, myself. I'm tired of Frankenstein stories. "What we're not meant to know" doesn't really fit in my paradigm.

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      CommentAuthorHalfjack
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2008
     # 52
    That's the only problem I have with the word "hubris" -- it has embedded in it an external agency that punishes. So does the phrase "what we're not meant to know". And I agree that's not all that interesting.
  53.  # 53

    The related theme I'm interested in is the cautionary tale where the unintended consequences of our actions present challenges, themselves. It's morally neutral, though responses to it are not. Agency remains in the hands of the people involved and they really can sort the shit out (given that, you know, you're creating the fiction and anything can happen).

    Like, how boring would Blade Runner be if the theme of the movie was that the creation of replicants was punishable hubris, rather than that they deserve the same dignity and respect that other people do? To be sure, Tyrell thinks he's engaging in (and defeating the consequences of) hubris because that's how he likes to think of himself. He lives in a temple fer Pete's sake. But it's the moral consequences of his actions, of his treating people inhumanly, that gets him killed. He thinks he's challenging God, but there is no God. There is only a vengeful slave who's smarter than everyone else and whose grief is as strong as his hate. He's not killed because he challenged the natural order. He's killed because he mistreated and underestimated his son.

  54.  # 54
    For me, it's all about the sensawunda. Any game that can accurately capture the "That's no moon..." moment is a winner in my book. :-)
  55.  # 55

    Yeah, that paradigm shift is a really powerful aspect of SF. To make it work, you have to build expectations before, and the wonder has to be meaningful for it to have a real impact. Like, "That's no moon..." implies some heavy stuff: that the Empire has built an entire moon, just to do bring down the pain. But you need to know that that's a big deal. Like, everyone isn't building moons and driving them around the Galaxy. That's why you get the big establishing shot and all the discussion. (Frankly, I think the scene's a little clumsy, but whatever)

    But that can exist in any fantastic, or even unusual, form of fiction. John Glenn describing the view from orbit in The Right Stuff, for instance. In a sense, The Right Stuff is "science nonfiction", in that it details several moments that, in real ways, changed the world, but it's also history. It's not speculating, except in the details.

    Or in Lord of the Rings when Helm's Deep is described. It's really awesome! But no one would argue that it's science fiction.

    I'd say that the sense of wonder is a powerful tool, but it's not what makes something be good science fiction. It just makes it impactful, whatever it is.

  56.  # 56
    I'm going to totally agree with justinpickard. Yes, there are many other elements of science fiction, such as the movements of societies instead of singular characters, and the effects of advanced technology on society as a whole. From what I've read in this thread, it seems that there are games that already cover these areas. However, I don't think I've ever seen a game where Sense of Wonder was somehow codified in the mechanics. If someone could create a game that always creates that moment, it would certainly satisfy a craving that I've been feeling for a long time.
  57.  # 57

    Yeah, that's the whole point of Xenon:, complete with the dubious results, and Sign In Stranger, with better results. The thing, is, one gets a sense of wonder as part of a creative process. The "codification" would have to be tools to use to create it. Sign In Stranger has tools in the form of the Mad Libs-like world creation, but Xenon:s is dumber.

    My point is, its an area that hasn't been greatly explored, but stuff's happening there.

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