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Stuff to Watch: This ought to blow some minds: RPG Gamebook on the Nintendo DS

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  1.  
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      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2009 edited
     # 1


    Originally posted over on my J-Games blog:
    http://j-rpg.com/talk/comments.php?DiscussionID=39

    So, I'm a fan of the Japanese RPG Sword World 2.0: It's clean, simple, and fun.

    Danny sent me a link to the following Youtube promotional video here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiQoH47RYac

    Which led me to Studio Broccoli's page over here:

    http://www.broccoli.co.jp/game/gamebook/swordworld/index.html

    So what the heck is it? It's not another console/handheld RPG.

    It's a Sword World 2.0 Tabletop enhancement game-thing, for the DS.
    It contains 4 tabletop scenarios,
    the core rulebooks
    lots of example pics, art
    a notepad for taking notes on the fly
    a quick-search index/glossary of the setting and rules
    a die roller
    a scenario/combat system thing (to resolve combats quicker)

    To make it, well, fun offline, it actually comes with a few choose-your-own-adventure style text scenarios where you choose a character and play through the game.
    However, the core of it is an electronic Nintendo DS product that you carry around with you, bust out at the table, and use as everything from a die roller, game notetaker, rules reference and scenario generator.

    Fucking awesome, that's what I think.

    Here's some more screens, focusing on the single-player story bits:
    http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/160/160116/

    Interestingly enough, this is just the first of a whole line of "GameBook DS" titles that the studio is working on. There is no information or hints as to what's coming next (my guess is another Group SNE product, like Demon Parasite).

    Anyway, technology intersects with gaming to make a more interesting tabletop experience. And this also outta bring more gamers into the fold (or make it easier to do so) over in Japan.

    I hope we can see something similar in the US later, although not sure about D&D: There's always more Core Book Style Material (new classes, data, etc) around the corner in splats, PHBs etc, so not sure they could put it all into one cartridge without making it quickly obsolete, but maybe the corebook trio, I dunno. Might work with a "rules are complete" game series from WW, maybe? Again, dunno.
    SW2.0 is complete: Core books are done (there are 3 corebooks, about $10 each, but you only really need the first to play: The latter two are for higher level play), no splats, just additional material in the form of scenarios and replays.

    -Andy
    • CommentAuthorDainXB
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2009
     # 2
    I want one! And I am just barely learning Japanese...
  3.  # 3
    I'm geek enough that I thought you'd just be referring to hacking a DS to act as a pdf viewer here; I've been meaning to do something like that for ages now, but can't seem to find the time for it.

    This, however... OK, it's certainly mind-blowing. You win this round, Kitkowski!
    • CommentAuthorWirebrain
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 4
    If only the game company I worked for A) put me in a role of choosing new product and B) Released DS games.

    This could easily be wheeled out as another "Casual Product", like the cook book and "how not to smoke", and I know all of the silly nintendo standards for 3rd party development.

    Couple this with a web based character creator program that made PDF sheets to print out, and you got a winner.
  5.  # 5
    Andy,

    Regarding the obsolescence concept, don't forget that the new DSi supports DLC.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 6
    I've been pondering trying to recruit some programmer friends and designing a game as an iphone app (not just an iphone-friendly PDF, but an actual app). This looks like something in that same ballpark, which is very, very cool.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjenskot
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 7
    Thanks for sharing this Andy!

    An iphone or blackberry app would be sweet.
  8.  # 8
    Posted By: Jonathan WaltonI've been pondering trying to recruit some programmer friends and designing a game as an iphone app (not just an iphone-friendly PDF, but an actual app). This looks like something in that same ballpark, which is very, very cool.


    I've been thinking the same thing. Really, the very same thing: that you, Jonathan, should make an iPhone game, what with your 8-bit skills and all. I'm sure that we've got enough talent among the SG crowd to make something that plays as well as Zenonia, but with more interesting storylines...
    •  
      CommentAuthorjenskot
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 9
    Has anyone made an iphone app? How difficult is it if you can program in say actionscript and other procedural as well as object oriented languages?
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 10
    Posted By: Eero TuovinenI'm geek enough that I thought you'd just be referring to hacking a DS to act as a pdf viewer here; I've been meaning to do something like that for ages now, but can't seem to find the time for it.


    Ah, with the correct hardware it's really easy; no effort at all, even.

    *) Purchase a SuperCard for the DS, and an SD Memory Card (though most SuperCards come with a small SD card included).
    *) The SuperCard OS can natively view simple text documents.
    *) Unfortunately, UTF-8 is another story. But if you cut your game up into simple txt files that are all ANSI text, you can view them easily.

    I did this with Maid, mostly for novelty, imagining what a "DS Table Reference" might look like. However, the cramped screen makes it really poor as a default reader, but it'd work if you commuted by public transport and were bored.

    But, the native text reader is top-down, usually displayed on the top screen only. It might be worth looking into a SuperCard app that will do the same, but:
    1) Work with UTF-8 fonts (which normally can be read by SuperCard and the DS, just not by the native SuperCard OS text reader), and
    2) Allow the ability to display on both screens, but better yet...
    3) ...allow you to hit a trigger button to orient the text like it shows in the screenshots, where you turn the DS sideways, holding it like a book, for greater text display capacity.

    Then you'd *really* be cooking.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDevP
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 11
    Damn, this is cool, and it feels like the *right* use of modern tech for tabletop RPGs, and it's disappointing that US games haven't got a great deal in this direction. (I feel that WotC really wanted to, but had a mix of poor execution + loss of nerve.)
    • CommentAuthorValamir
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 12
    Yeah, can you imagine a 4E power card app for an Iphone or DS?

    Here's my character, here's an interface that lets me scroll through all my powers with pertinent info and icons and ability to sort and filter.

    Here's me drilling down on one and filling my screen with a full color game card that lists all the shit I need.

    Here's me on the Iphone flicking my finger on the screen to flip through all my cards as fast as my eye can register the pic and realize that's not what I'm looking for.

    Sweeeeet.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMatt
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 13
    Posted By: jenskotHas anyone made an iphone app? How difficult is it if you can program in say actionscript and other procedural as well as object oriented languages?


    I noodled around with it, it takes a bit of getting used to, objective C is its own beast.
  14.  # 14
    Posted By: Jonathan WaltonI've been pondering trying to recruit some programmer friends and designing a game as an iphone app (not just an iphone-friendly PDF, but an actual app). This looks like something in that same ballpark, which is very, very cool.


    Heh! And here I'd been doing just the opposite, focusing on an app but never even thinking about including the rules. Man, this is great stuff!
    •  
      CommentAuthorsage
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 15
    I've played around with similar concepts for phone apps, but there's a couple of issues:

    - The general purpose stuff (dice rolling, note taking) has already been done.

    - The games that would most benefit from this have licensing issues. The games that have more approachable (non-corporate) owners tend to not need this type of app as much.

    Can anyone suggest a feature that's not already covered and could be done without calling down the legal wrath of someone?
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009 edited
     # 16
    I'm not really talking about making features, so much as delivering an entire tabletop game *as an app*, one that you would use during play in the process of playing the game. I mean features and tools are great, but it's hard to think of something that I'd want for running, say, Mouse Guard or something that you could get the rights too, aside from an easily referenced cheat guide (flip to Otter stats, etc.), which could easily just be formatted as a PDF or something. Better to create a game from the ground up, knowing that you have these capabilities at your disposal and making full use of them.
    • CommentAuthorEric
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 17
    Posted By: Jonathan WaltonI'm not really talking about making features, so much as delivering an entire tabletop game *as an app*, one that you would use during play in the process of playing the game. I mean features and tools are great, but it's hard to think of something that I'd want for running, say, Mouse Guard or something that you could get the rights too, aside from an easily referenced cheat guide (flip to Otter stats, etc.), which could easily just be formatted as a PDF or something. Better to create a game from the ground up, knowing that you have these capabilities at your disposal and making full use of them.

    Example: shake the iPhone for conflict outcome. Not a dice roller, you shake it and it tells you what happens. Build a game knowing that you can have a huge table of outcomes possible, contextually sensitive to the phase of the game and so on.
    •  
      CommentAuthornetwomble
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2009
     # 18
    Posted By: Andy
    Posted By: Eero TuovinenI'm geek enough that I thought you'd just be referring to hacking a DS to act as a pdf viewer here; I've been meaning to do something like that for ages now, but can't seem to find the time for it.


    Ah, with the correct hardware it's really easy; no effort at all, even.

    *) Purchase a SuperCard for the DS, and an SD Memory Card (though most SuperCards come with a small SD card included).
    *) The SuperCard OS can natively view simple text documents.
    *) Unfortunately, UTF-8 is another story. But if you cut your game up into simple txt files that are all ANSI text, you can view them easily.

    I did this with Maid, mostly for novelty, imagining what a "DS Table Reference" might look like. However, the cramped screen makes it really poor as a default reader, but it'd work if you commuted by public transport and were bored.

    But, the native text reader is top-down, usually displayed on the top screen only. It might be worth looking into a SuperCard app that will do the same, but:
    1) Work with UTF-8 fonts (which normally can be read by SuperCard and the DS, just not by the native SuperCard OS text reader), and
    2) Allow the ability to display on both screens, but better yet...
    3) ...allow you to hit a trigger button to orient the text like it shows in the screenshots, where you turn the DS sideways, holding it like a book, for greater text display capacity.

    Then you'd *really* be cooking.


    Andy, check out Comic Book DS (http://cbds.free.fr/?language=en).

    It's basically an image viewer tailored to comics, so it doesn't display raw text. However I think the conversion software will do PDFs, and if it doesn't you can easily find apps that will turna pdf into a bunch of bitmaps images that the software can covert.

    I use it (unsurprisingly) to read comics on the bus to work, but I also found it pretty good for roleplaying games too.
    • CommentAuthorDestriarch
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2009
     # 19
    Posted By: jenskotHas anyone made an iphone app? How difficult is it if you can program in say actionscript and other procedural as well as object oriented languages?

    The language is a touch odd if you're used to straight C but it's not insurmountable. I actually was really hoping to do some serious RPG type programming on iPhone / iPod myself, but sadly the SDK is only available for Apple Mac, and I refuse to purchase a VERY EXPENSIVE new computer just to develop for the iPhone.

    -Ash
  20.  # 20
    Does anyone have an examples of a PDF game that's pushed the PDFs functionality to the limit? All I know about is links and bookmarks, but what else can PDFs do that might bring it into the realm of being an "app?"
  21.  # 21
    PDFs can actually do some pretty wild things nowadays. Playing music and animations, for example. Also, layered pages where the page contents change when you click at them. I should teach some of that stuff to myself at some point.
  22.  # 22
    Posted By: DanielSolisDoes anyone have an examples of a PDF game that's pushed the PDFs functionality to the limit?

    I'd look to the BTRC pdf-based products for a lead on this.
    •  
      CommentAuthormisuba
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2009
     # 23
    There is an automatic Werewolf moderator for iPhone (written by award-winning board game designer Kory Heath).

    And yeah, Infinite Armies from BTRC definitely, but be careful who you buy it from - my copy came from a store that didn't care much about its PDFs and didn't apparently have all the moving parts it needed to run.
  24.  # 24
    Posted By: Destriarchsadly the SDK is only available for Apple Mac, and I refuse to purchase a VERY EXPENSIVE new computer just to develop for the iPhone.
    Have you investigated some branches of Linux, one or more of which might include an Apple emulator? Mac OSX is, after all, just BSD (or something'--too lazy to look it up again).

    Then you could just dual-boot into the Linux environment, to develop for iPhone. If you're burning up to do it, it shouldn't be hard to research if/how to do it under Linux.
    • CommentAuthorMr. Teapot
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2009
     # 25
    Posted By: DanielSolisDoes anyone have an examples of a PDF game that's pushed the PDFs functionality to the limit? All I know about is links and bookmarks, but what else can PDFs do that might bring it into the realm of being an "app?"


    You could do an old-school choose your own adventure book in a PDF, where each decision you have is two links that take you to spearate parts of the PDF.

    And you can have PDFs do calculations and the like, to do the math in your game system or for character creation.

    Combine the two and you could have a playable solo adventure as the introduction to your game's PDF, where the computer does all the work for you. (I know my brother was working on some project like this a while ago for some small mainstream rpg company, but never heard if anything came of it.)
  26.  # 26
    Anything form-based and data-driven can be done in a PDF. Couple that with Flash animation embedding and, well... you can make any kind of game or application, if you like.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsage
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2009 edited
     # 27
    Posted By: Eric
    Example: shake the iPhone for conflict outcome. Not a dice roller, you shake it and it tells you what happens. Build a game knowing that you can have a huge table of outcomes possible, contextually sensitive to the phase of the game and so on.


    Okay, I like that, there's some potential there.

    Taking up my own challenge, now that I think about it some more, I think there's a lot of cool stuff you could do once the device is prevalent enough. Conflict resolution that took into account secret options by both players that are never shared? Kind of like rock-paper-scissors, but I don't know what you chose, I just see my choice and a result (granted, in RPS that's enough to figure out what the other person played, but you get the idea). A bit of alternate reality stuff? An oracle system that parsed out a news feed in some way to create the oracles of the day?
    •  
      CommentAuthorrenatoram
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2009
     # 28
    @David: only PPC Apple machines could run OSX without problems (using MOL - Mac On Linux). But if you have an apple machine already it's kinda beside the point. Also, PPC is being phased out.

    If you want to run OSX on the cheap, investigate installing it on a different laptop. Many modern ones (much less expensive than Apple machines) nowadays can run OSX. Just "unofficially" :)

    Google for "Hackintosh". IIRC even some Netbooks can run it.
  29.  # 29
    I did more reading, and being an iPhone dev is mostly a lottery, from the looks of it. $99 minimum to take a shot at it, and they still hold the approval rights AND the sole distribution channel.

    Ash, might be a better idea if you develop for Android.
    • CommentAuthorTrevis
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2009 edited
     # 30
    Posted By: Destriarch I actually was really hoping to do some serious RPG type programming on iPhone / iPod myself, but sadly the SDK is only available for Apple Mac, and I refuse to purchase a VERY EXPENSIVE new computer just to develop for the iPhone.

    -Ash


    Mac Minis aren't that expensive ($600-$800), and the laptops have come down too. But since apple switched to the intel chips a couple of years ago, a lot of computers can be hacked into it, from what I understand.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrenatoram
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     # 31
    For example...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AUrUCVG8jo

    http://www.geardiary.com/2008/12/17/the-creation-of-a-hackintosh/

    ...but yeah, the Appstore policies are silly.
  32.  # 32
    So for someone who doesn't know javascript and probably doesn't have the time to learn it, are the options pretty much limited to the point-and-click choose-your-own-adventure kind of PDF?
  33.  # 33
    Well, it's easy to make a form and let it save itself to a "database," so editable character sheets and other forms are possible, just not any behind the scenes calculations. And you can still embed video and audio as easily as anything else, so that gives you some tools for doing training aides.

    Put it this way: if you can make it in a web site, you can probably make it in a PDF. Um... wikis not included, now that I consider it... no, wait, you can with Full Acrobat, but not with Reader. If you're talking a PDF intended to use in Reader, there resulting PDF can't be extended (but can still do forms, video, etc).
    • CommentAuthorthe cat
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     # 34
    Andy, why do you taunt us so?!?
    • CommentAuthorseanhess
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     # 35
    If you're going to make an app, don't use PDF. That's ridiculous. This thread has some AWESOME ideas, btw. As some have mentioned, not only could you make a great RPG this way, it could be marketed as a party-game and appeal to wider range of people.

    I was thinking too... What about adding some augmented reality? You know, using some sort of a marker, and seeing the game unfold through the camera of the iphone with 3D guys running around on the table.

    You could add dice that appear to roll on your actual table through the camera, etc.
    • CommentAuthorseanhess
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     # 36
    Oh, and you can pick up a used mac mini on ebay for $400-$500. I got my media center mac mini for $400 (core 2 duo, old graphics card, but can play 720p without much trouble). It would be fine for development. Objective-C does strike me as a strange language for such a modern platform, though. OS X needs a modern language with a markup-based view language. Either that or let interface builder work for more than prototyping.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     # 37
    Posted By: Christian GriffenI've been thinking the same thing. Really, the very same thing: that you, Jonathan, should make an iPhone game, what with your 8-bit skills and all.


    Okay, Christian, I'm designing an iPhone game for you. Get cracking on that code! :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorccreitz
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2009
     # 38
    Posted By: seanhessIf you're going to make an app, don't use PDF.
    Did y'all see this TiddlyWiki thing? I have never seen DHTML do tricks like this. I am thinking that it would be beyond awesome to use one of these to communicate the game rules, and then moderate the game.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrenatoram
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     # 39
    Well, Colin... have you ever used modern Ajax applications like Google Documents, or gmail, or seen the google wave demo? That's html+javascript, no plugins. And if you have the "gears" engine (like chrome and firefox do) they can work offline, without server side, too.
  40.  # 40
    If you're going the augmented reality route, you could create a book with specially coded markers on each page that the camera could recognize. Then when you turn each page, it becomes a kind of CG pop-up book.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccreitz
    • CommentTimeJun 20th 2009
     # 41
    Renato, the amazing thing about TiddlyWIki is that it one-ups the (very impressive, as you say) AJAX apps you mention by moving all of the logic, no exceptions, to the client side, since there is no server side. I've read the code — and of course, unlike Google Docs, here I can read all of the code — and it is a marvel of sophistication, plus also of hack value. I guess that's really the crux of the thing: the hack value of a wiki implemented entirely in Javascript approaches infinity, and the fact that it has a high utility and a near-zero barrier to adoption just makes it all the more endearing.

    I'm guessing from the tenor of your comments that you program. You should totally dive into the TiddlyWiki code for a few minutes and marvel at its cool powers. Saving a modified DOM as HTML, for instance, is a neat trick, and check out how the developer, Ruston, does the user management right in the document. He really did a great job of packing in functionality without bloat — this is a really elegant piece of software (I think it's ugly from the outside, but of course that's something that can be readily fixed).
  42.  # 42
    When I was reading the "Blue Ocean Strategy" thread, I was imagining an iPhone or DS app that was like a hybrid between an interactive character sheet and a LARP conflict resolver. At the table, your iPhone or DS could communicate with the other players' devices: automating/hiding mechanics and keeping people focused on "story jammin'".
  43.  # 43
    Posted By: Chris PetersonWhen I was reading the "Blue Ocean Strategy" thread, I was imagining an iPhone or DS app that was like a hybrid between an interactive character sheet and a LARP conflict resolver. At the table, your iPhone or DS could communicate with the other players' devices: automating/hiding mechanics and keeping people focused on "story jammin'".


    That'd be awesome. You'd be in the middle of the conversation and look down and tap "I'm seducing him" and the DS would tell you back "You're actually falling for him" or somesuch.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsage
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     # 44
    Posted By: Mark Causey
    Posted By: Chris PetersonWhen I was reading the "Blue Ocean Strategy" thread, I was imagining an iPhone or DS app that was like a hybrid between an interactive character sheet and a LARP conflict resolver. At the table, your iPhone or DS could communicate with the other players' devices: automating/hiding mechanics and keeping people focused on "story jammin'".


    That'd be awesome. You'd be in the middle of the conversation and look down and tap "I'm seducing him" and the DS would tell you back "You're actually falling for him" or somesuch.

    That's kind of the idea I was getting at with "hidden rock paper scissors." Instead of seeing all the fiddly bits of conflict resolution, you just make some choices and get a result.
    • CommentAuthorHiQKid
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009 edited
     # 45
    Do iPhones have GPS capabilities?

    If so, an alternate reality or something game that is influenced by the real world could be cool...

    Change results based on where you are... go to X local place to continue the game. A sort of larpish thing, maybe?

    EDIT: Also, someone mentioned Google's new thing (Wave, IIRC). I don't want to get too excited about it, yet, but such a tool might be pretty useful - especially since it seems like they're focused on making it extensible / easy to develop for. Sharing (possibly shared editing?) of images, IMing, built in dice/oracles/who else knows what else, draw in/send out info to twiter, and post the whole thing right to a blog when you're done?

    Pretty cool stuff right there.
  46.  # 46
    Posted By: HiQKidDo iPhones have GPS capabilities?

    The iPhones does have GPS. Parallel Kingdom is an "augmented reality" game (for iPhone and Android) that looks like a mash-up of Google Maps, an MMORPG, and a LARP. Reviews say the game sucks, but the idea is kinda cool.

    Since this location-based games require lots of players before they get interesting, I've been thinking a location-based zombie game would be cool. Like a cross between Google Maps and the Urban Dead browser-based game. The zombies would be initially controlled by game AI, but as more players joined, some could "drive" mobs of zombie mobs to surround human players.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAndy
    • CommentTimeNov 4th 2009
     # 47
    Oh hey, quick update!

    I got myself a copy of Sword World DS 2.0, the very game/piece that this thread was about.

    I'll have a detailed review later, but here's the short:

    * There are some clever ideas for a tabletop RPG supplement here.
    * But aside from that, it's almost total crap. It screams "this should have been a free Flash game" or something.

    -Andy
  48.  # 48
    Looking forward to the review! Shame about the otherwise crapitude. :(

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