So, Maid isn't creepy?

edited January 2010 in Story Games
Really?

Gotta say, it creeps me right out.
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Comments

  • edited January 2010
    Compare and contrast with My Life with Master.
  • Posted By: Andy(editing/localiztion issue with the first print run aside) The game has titilating material (random item table, among other things, features a vibrator in all but name as one of the hundreds of items listed).
    Really?

    I get what Andy was writing, that gamers with a background of gaming Forge indie RPG's were probably My Life with Mastering the thing and I get hat this wasn't the text's intent but...I dunno.

    I reckon I would need to grab the game and dig into the text.

    More than anything, I wanted Anna's thread to be left alone and folks to have another place to talk about this.
  • Posted By: Adam DrayCompare and contrast with My Life with Master.
    MLwM's text does not gender the master as far as I can tell.
  • True, regarding gender. Also, MLwM makes the destruction of the Master more or less inevitable, which is an ethical lesson baked into the game.
  • I haven't read it, but I do seem to recall several people mentioning that the master in Maid isn't specifically gendered (or even human) either.

    Maybe it would help if you can tell us why it creeps you out?
  • Maid doesn't gender the master either, as far as I noticed.

    I didn't find Maid creepy when I read it - it was humorous and geeky, mainly.

    I guess this sort of thing depends solely on whether you consider sex a taboo to polite society. No, that's wrong - it depends on whether you consider kink a taboo. I don't, so Maid doesn't bother me.
  • Posted By: Eero TuovinenMaid doesn't gender the master either, as far as I noticed.

    I didn't find Maid creepy when I read it - it was humorous and geeky, mainly.

    I guess this sort of thing depends solely on whether you consider sex a taboo to polite society. No, that's wrong - it depends on whether you considerkinka taboo. I don't, so Maid doesn't bother me.
    No, I loves me some kink. That is not at all it. Do not draw my creeped out state on some kind of Victorian sexual mores, here.

    It is sexualizing girls at a very young age, packaged in a way that seems geared towards children and it becomes even creepier to me when it is noted that it the childish packaging is towards adult. I think of my daughter (I don't have a daughter) getting this game and I want to spit blood. There is nothing to note any adult content on the site.

    It is in the context of gaming as a sub-culture that has so many lame depictions of women that when a woman who appears powerful and kick-ass and well drawn comes up without mid-riff full plate armor or in a Victoria's Secret pose that we get together, make threads about the pic and have a damned party.

    It is Maid in its context on a game shelf next to D&D and Vampire.
  • I'd appreciate it (again) if people could specify if they're talking about the game of Maid or the art of Maid. Thanks.
  • I think conceptually the whole maid thing is kinda creepy and I don't get that style of anime or any of it. It is way weird to me in a head scratching way.

    Now the game on the other hand, was not creepy or weird at all when we played it... beyond 5 dudes and a girl pretending to be young Japanese maids is I guess. The game we played was insane, hilarious and off the wall crazy. It was like some weird Anime Looney Toons cartoon from bizaro world. Even the sexual stuff that showed up (nothing graphic or explicit) wasn't weird and came off more funny and awkward then creepy. I think my sides still ache a little from how much we laughed while playing and that was like over a year ago.

    - Colin
  • edited January 2010
    Judd wrote: MLwM's text does not gender the master as far as I can tell.

    It doesn't? At least the Finnish translation of MLwM specifically states that the Master must always be an unmarried man. By contrast, the Master in Maid can be practically anyone (or anything) with some source of influence and power, and the rules include no default assumptions about this authority figure's sex or gender. Most of the examples in the text are female, and the play reports feature one male Master, an eleven-year-old boy.

    (The game in no way dictates the ages of the maids, either, which is one of the rare details left entirely up to the players.)
  • Posted By: Judd

    It is sexualizing girls at a very young age, packaged in a way that seems geared towards children and it becomes even creepier to me when it is noted that it the childish packaging is towards adult.
    So it's the art, the packaging that creeps you out? If it were just text with no art, would it still creep you out?

    Just trying to pin this down - product presentation is an important part of how it's perceived.
  • Master is a gendered term. Compare to mistress. So, unless the game specifically says master is gender-neutral, the implication of male-only will prevail.
    Posted By: JuddIt is sexualizing girls at a very young age, packaged in a way that seems geared towards children and it becomes even creepier to me when it is noted that it the childish packaging is towards adult. I think of my daughter (I don't have a daughter) getting this game and I want to spit blood. There is nothing to note any adult content on the site.
    I wouldn't suggest the game is geared towards young children. The overtly sexual connotations of 'French Maids' combined with it's 'cute' (moe, to use the lexicon) anime stylings seem to market it exclusively at young men. Simply because the women depicted are young shouldn't indicate the product is aimed for young women to consume.
  • Posted By: Mike MontesaPosted By: Judd

    It is sexualizing girls at a very young age, packaged in a way that seems geared towards children and it becomes even creepier to me when it is noted that it the childish packaging is towards adult.
    So it's the art, the packaging that creeps you out? If it were just text with no art, would it still creep you out?

    Just trying to pin this down - product presentation is an important part of how it's perceived.

    I haven't read the text and based on the site I am not inclined to shell out money to pick it up, so I can't give any kind of informed opinion on it.
  • Master is a gendered term.

    The people who are serving, rebelling, getting out from under the master are not gendered as I recall.
  • Posted By: GrimGentJudd wrote:MLwM's text does not gender the master as far as I can tell.

    It doesn't? At least the Finnish translation ofMLwMspecifically states that the Master mustalwaysbe an unmarried man.
    Either you're remembering incorrectly or the translation is poor. The text state that the Master must be unmarried but not necessarily a man. In fact, in the running game example the Master is Carlotta, a vain woman.

    Jesse
  • I don't want to crap all over Judd's thread, but... this sort of makes me feel like "So, broccoli isn't delicious?"

    I mean, I don't see what can occur other than some people saying "In my opinion, broccoli is gross!" and some other people saying "In my opinion, broccoli is delicious!"

    I guess I'll say: Judd, if there's something other than that which you'd like to see in this thread, what is it?
  • Posted By: RogerI don't want to crap all over Judd's thread, but... this sort of makes me feel like "So, broccoli isn't delicious?"

    I mean, I don't see what can occur other than some people saying "In my opinion, broccoli is gross!" and some other people saying "In my opinion, broccoli is delicious!"

    I guess I'll say: Judd, if there's something other than that which you'd like to see in this thread, what is it?
    This is more than just a taste issue, I think.

    Most of all, I wanted to see people stop crapping on Anna's thread that had a laser focused purpose and people were just willfully ignoring it.

    But don't worry about any of that, because we don't have any problematic sexism in our sub-culture.

    Oh, by the way, this game about young teen maids that seems to be packaged like some kind of traditional gender role female pre-teen's My Little Pony bedroom set but is actually marketed towards men is not creepy.

    The comparing it to MLwM is just outragious to me. I am just all around puzzled.

    I am happy with:

    1) remaining puzzled until the end of my days.

    2) having cultural issues that surround the game explained to me in a way that doesn't tell me that my discomfort with it is linked to my Puritanical ideas about sex.

    3) have the thread sink to Story Games Hades forever.
  • edited January 2010
    When I thumbed through a local copy I thought it was nerdy in all the wrong ways* and Not My Thing. That said, terrific presentation and lots of fun ideas.

    * which is of course a huge and loaded topic. Mostly I do not want sexual fetish -- don't really care about the Japanese context, whatever it may be; my context is that young women packed into undersized maid costumes is the original cosplay -- to be the focal point of play for my regular all-male group**. I don't see myself deriving any pleasure from them pretending to be maids; I don't want to pretend to be their master.

    ** nor would I be comfortable with sexual fetish being the focal point of ANY game group. See "Not My Thing," above.
  • Posted By: GrimGent
    It doesn't? At least the Finnish translation ofMLwMspecifically states that the Master mustalwaysbe an unmarried man. By contrast, the Master inMaidcan be practically anyone (or anything) with some source of influence and power, and the rules include no default assumptions about this authority figure's sex or gender. Most of the examples in the text are female, and the play reports featureonemale Master, an eleven-year-old boy.
    I just had to check this, being that I'm responsible for editing the Finnish text. Here's the English-language MLwM in the part I think Janne means:
    "Masters are always single. Perhaps widowed. Perhaps engaged. But never currently married."
    And the Finnish:
    "Isännät ovat aina naimattomia. Ehkä leskiä. Kenties kihloissa. Mutta eivät koskaan juuri nyt naimisissa."

    Both of those imply gender only insofar as "Master" is a gendered word in both languages. The Finnish term "Isäntä" specifically means the master of a household as opposed to a master of a craft, which has a different word in Finnish. Maybe Janne misremembered because in Finnish, unlike English, the corresponding female word "emäntä" means the female master (or co-master) of a household, unlike the English word "mistress", which is more often used in a subservient way. ("Rakastajatar" would be the Finnish word for a love-mistress of a man.)

    But anyway, that's a different topic. The point to me seems to be that Maid seems to get a lot of defence by the way of nit-picking the text of the game. I don't think this is very fair towards Judd and others who dislike the game - it's like saying that they don't know how to interpret what they read. I find that if I have to choose between considering Maid a perverse sex game or pretending that it doesn't really mean to be kinky, I'll have to go with the former as being closer to the truth. The fact that you can use the game for non-kinky purposes, and the fact that the game's text has no overt pornographic tones, do not together mean that Judd is unfair in characterizing the game as having erotic overtones. The same goes for the whole maid phenomenon, by the way - you'd need to be blind to the subtext to claim that it's not a sexual fetish, and you'd similarly need to be blind to claim that the Maid rpg doesn't gesture towards that same fetish with its contents. It's all well and good that actual play is not pornographic, but rather comedic and adventurous; that's what I'd expect of any product in the ecchi genre, and that's what I'd definitely expect of a roleplaying crew - it'd be pretty weird to gather the guys together for a shared session of overtly sexual maid fetish narration, frankly. But saying that the fetish is not a motive force behind the game's imagery and genre is just stupid.

    Judd: You well deserve to have an opinion, but what you wrote up there is, in fact, prudery of the sort you said that it's not. Might be just a culture thing, but I don't expect each and every product that makes a passing reference or even bases itself onto a sexual subculture to have a large "adults only" warning plastered over it. It's just not that big a deal, and I personally doubt that children are going to get hurt by it. (Could be wrong, just my opinion, etc.) Human sexuality is and has always been a strong driving force behind all sorts of artistic creativity, and the results tend to make their way into mainstream polite culture in time. The Maid roleplaying game is just a couple of naughty non-explicit jokes away from such mainstream phenomena as Bratz dolls; definitely still recognizable as being based on a sexual fetish, but not directly sexual itself any more than dryads or succubi in D&D are.

    (The child porn angle is more troublesome by far here - if it's OK with you, I'll just skip it in favour of arguing about the general position of sexuality in polite society, unless you want to concede the above point and focus on how wrong and sick Maid is for mixing children with sexual imagery and situations. They're a bit separate issues, as I see it.)

    In summation, though, let me say that I'm 100% OK with Judd disliking the game for its kinkiness, and I do recognize that we differ only on a matter of taste. I do agree with him that it is kinky, no amount of selective reading and creative drifting in actual play really gets over the sexual innuendo evident in the game text in many places. I just don't personally see any great aesthetic or ethical problem in Maid's kinkiness. Something like Bacchanal is much more problematic in that regard - the latter has a maturity warning in my webstore, while the former does not.
  • Posted By: JuddBut don't worry about any of that, because we don't have any problematic sexism in our sub-culture.
    I think this is an important point. This game, like any, is part of a broader context of games.

    That doesn't mean we need to spend all our time rubbing ashes in our hair and bemoaning our misogyny. But I think anyone who is into RPGs and is not willing to admit that there is a strong element of sexist imagery and presentations in our games is not facing facts.
  • edited January 2010
    I wanted to talk about my experiences playing Maid vs. Anna's experiences with the text but seriously this thread is full of ignorance. Let's get some basic facts straight.

    Maid doesn't gender the master. The examples are well over %50 female masters. The english term "master" is, of course, a translation of a Japanese term, but as far as I know the Japanese term is also slightly gendered male [edit: I am told by someone who knows the language that it is heavily gendered male]. Nonetheless, the game goes out of its way to say that the master can be any gender whatsoever.

    Maid does gender the maids, expliclitly. There are rules for two character types that are male (stewards and butlers) in a supplement. They're secondary and supplemental and I'll consider them in a bit.

    For contrast, MLwM does gender the Master male (and unmarried). It does not gender the minions.

    Andy's whole story about indie dudes was great but I have a hunch it's a lie. I've never heard of anyone's Maid game going to a dark place that they didn't want and touching them in a private area. It's pretty hard to play Maid and *not* get the premise. Which is that the Maids are the only characters with real agency.

    If you find Maid icky, I would like you to take a moment and check yourself. Is it because you are inherently grossed out by the idea of Maid fetish? Then it's not for you please move along. Is it because it's coming from a culture which you have certain stereotypical expectations from? Then take a second and imagine it was written by Vincent Baker and think about what he would mean by it. (Ryo Kamiya, the designer of Maid, is about %50 smarter than Vincent but we'll do this for now.)
  • Euro,

    How many times do I have to write that I do not dislike the game for its kinkiness?

    How many times?

    You tell me how many times I have to write it and I will decide if it is worth typing it that many times.

    Fuck.
  • edited January 2010
    Posted By: Eero Tuovinen(The child porn angle is more troublesome by far here - if it's OK with you, I'll just skip it in favour of arguing about the general position of sexuality in polite society...

    In summation, though, let me say that I'm 100% OK with Judd disliking the game for its kinkiness...
    So, you're going to dismiss his main concern about the game, and then tell him that, with that dismissed, his concern about the game (which you are now making up out your ass) isn't really valid.

    Really?
  • edited January 2010
    Thanks for starting this thread, Judd! I actually have a lot to say about it and have been quiet because Anna didn't want to talk about it. I bought the game, and the reaction of other people to it isn't surprising I guess, but it's interesting to me to see what people who don't like the game and aren't interested in it are criticizing it for, and the people who bought the game and play it and want to play it are doing with it.

    I bought the game because I said, "Jesus, a game that isn't about murder. Thank God," and decided right then I was going to support it. I mean, it's interesting to me how many games are about murder, have elaborate rules for murder, and murder occurs to them as a matter of course. But that's not creepy. Or at least you won't find a thread that's like, "Guys, I picked up Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd on a whim, and... well.. there's an awful lot of violence and murder in it. Does anyone else find that creepy?" The game does have actiony, cartoony fighting in it, but it lacks the general roleplaying game market's fascination with killing other beings.

    I never, at any point, picked up the game because I wanted to fuck a maid. I do not sexually fetishize maids. I could go on and elaborate but I'm not sure how much anyone in this forum cares about my actual sexual interests, but I did not buy this as a sex game. I got it as a fun, goofy game about a subgenre of anime with which I am vaguely familiar. And I know you said that you're not concerned about kinkiness, but that's not even why I bought or would play the game and I know others have expressed that discomfort.

    Anecdotally, the people I know personally who have been the most aggressive about me running it for them have been females and one homosexual male, some anime fans but some not. The non-anime fans were people who do not care for the action fantasy sci fi murder games that are most RPGs. The people I know who have been dismissive of it or creeped out by it have been straight men.

    I have unfortunately not gotten to play it, but I did get to hear about how a session of it ran at a college gaming con I attend every year. There was lots of cartoon wackiness and comic mayhem, battling of aliens, blowing random things up with missile launchers, etc. Every year the demographic of the convention shifts and more women are attending, and we end up seeing fewer fantasy murder games, and more games like this or that game about lawyer animals that dance.

    My recommendation to perhaps decreepify yourself about this game is find someone who is actually excited about the game that you know in real life and ask them why they are excited about it.
  • Eero Tuovinen wrote: Both of those imply gender only insofar as "Master" is a gendered word in both languages. The Finnish term "Isäntä" specifically means the master of a household as opposed to a master of a craft, which has a different word in Finnish. Maybe Janne misremembered because in Finnish, unlike English, the corresponding female word "emäntä" means the female master (or co-master) of a household, unlike the English word "mistress", which is more often used in a subservient way.

    True, I automatically associate the word isäntä with a man in charge, but with good cause, I'd say. In Finnish, you simply would never use that expression about a woman: as you say, that's because our language includes the equivalent female counterpart emäntä, and etymologically these two terms are derived from the same origin as "father" and "mother", respectively.On the other hand, in English you could quite easily use a term like, oh, "kung fu master" about anyone at all without provoking too much confusion.
  • Posted By: Bret GillanMy recommendation to perhaps decreepify yourself about this game is find someone who is actually excited about the game that you know in real life and ask them why they are excited about it.
    This is a great recommendation and I will talk to you and Kat about it this weekend some time.

    Thanks, Bret.
  • Well, Judd, your second post was pretty much "I don't hate it for kinkiness, but here are some reasons why the kinkiness bothers me." How is one supposed to take that?

    Anyway, this is obviously an important thing for you - and emotional as well? Obviously something larger going on here. Reading the cross-posted stuff, I'd say that what we should be discussing here might be the issue of how Maid is responsible as part of the roleplaying culture for how it's going to be interpreted as its representative - does that sound right to you? Seems from some of those points that you're worried and annoyed by how a hobby already so mired in misogyny could be a platform for another game that so objectifies women. If that's the point here, then I have to say that I can see how that can be annoying. I don't find Maid nearly as offensive as the usual range of rpg cheesecake, though, because it is based on a well-established prior genre of comedy, which it handles with comedic grace. Getting angry at it for being sexist is like getting angry at a roleplaying game focused on music hall theatrical culture - music hall sure is sexist, but is that any reason to be angry at a roleplaying game that tackles the topic neutrally and smartly?

    Or maybe - should I ask if I'm allowed to disagree at all here? Is this one of those threads where the point is to express an opinion, not discuss it?
  • Bret,

    I think you touch on the nub of something complicated and interesting:

    When someone goes to a movie, the might take away something completely different than what someone else takes away from it. I had a friend who, when he saw Aliens, only wanted to talk about how it perpetuated the myth of the dangerously incompetent Vietnam War platoon leader. Seriously.

    What one woman sees in a movie or activity as, say, sexist, might be empowering to another woman. It's crazy! But it happens!

    RPGs are this, but even more so -- we take the book, and then, no matter what the pictures or the example text, we go off and do our own thing with it, creating our own pictures and examples. A RPG might have something, only 10% of the book, that we go, "YES!" And run with that with our friends. Someone else is looking at all the parts of the book we ignored and ask, "How can you do that?" To which the person playing the game and having a great time can honestly say, "But that's not what the game is." Because, for them, that game is actually something specific and not the stuff they ignored.
  • Posted By: Bret GillanBut that's not creepy. Or at least you won't find a thread that's like, "Guys, I picked up Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd on a whim, and... well.. there's an awful lot of violence and murder in it. Does anyone else find that creepy?"
    Ha ha. Yeah, I would find a thread like that weird, and maybe willfully obtuse, but you are exactly right.
  • Christopher: I didn't understand that Judd's main grudge here concerns the child porn issue - to me it seemed like his problem was that the game is sexist and sexualized, which is improper for a roleplaying game. Do you want to discuss the way Maid uses underage characters in innuendo? It is a valid concern, I think, but not something that can be tackled without finding common ground on whether any sexuality or sexism at all is bad here, or if the game would actually be fine if not for using under-age characters now and then.

    Also: Agreed with Bret, my experience mirrors his. I find the whole idea that women are great enemies of the maid genre laughable in the light of my own experiences. Maybe they should be - it's an interesting topic to discuss, anyway - but the real world doesn't seem to work that way: people get their kicks from all sorts of things, and if Maid seems cute and fun to them with or without sexual overtones, who are we to gainsay?

    Also times two: let's slow down here, I at least have to get to other things soon. And I don't want to fight with Judd anyway, it's just not worth it just for me to get to flout my liberal inclinations.
  • Eero,

    I think the point of this thread is for me, not to talk about this with you.

    Onwards,

    I have had some great IM's with Ben and Bret spawned from this thread. Got some great recommendations for some manga to kind of lay the foundation for an Anime/Manga Reading 101 that I find important as a future public school librarian. And I will talk with Kat, a roommate and good friend who is more informed about this stuff than I am, along with Bret.

    Thanks, I'm done.
  • Ero,

    Here is what Judd wrote:

    "It is sexualizing girls at a very young age, packaged in a way that seems geared towards children and it becomes even creepier to me when it is noted that it the childish packaging is towards adult."

    Seriously, you are stepping way out of line with some across the internet mind reading about his true concerns -- when he has plainly said what his concerns are. And it isn't sexism. It's creepiness.

    Dude. Why are you not addressing the words that are plainly on your browser window?
  • Posted By: Christopher KubasikWhat one woman sees in a movie or activity as, say, sexist, might be empowering to another woman. It's crazy! But it happens!
    Sure thing. But all too often (at least in RPG forums), there is no second woman coming along to present her countervailing point of view .. just dudes hypothesizing that such a woman might exist in order to defend against the criticism/observation of the first (and only) woman.
  • Posted By: JuddThe comparing it to MLwM is just outragious to me. I am just all around puzzled.
    I brought it up because on the surface the two games have similar situation. GM plays the Master in both. Players play subservient minions or maids. I don't think that's a crazy comparison.

    I brought it up because I'm pretty sure that My Life with Master, despite having a game situation very similar to Maid, doesn't creep you out.

    I think contrasting the two games helps to get at the issues.
  • Posted By: JuddThis is more than just a taste issue, I think.
    It might be. I'll expand a little bit more on what I mean by that:
    Posted By: JuddOh, by the way, this game about young teen maids
    As far as I can tell, by looking at the art and looking at some of the free supplements and hearing about the rules from people who seem to know them, there's nothing there that indicates that the maids are substantially young or teenaged.

    That's why I mean when I say it's a matter of taste. You look at a piece of art and say, "Look, it's obvious that that character is a young teen!" I look at it and say, "Hunh; that's not obvious to me at all." And I don't think there's anywhere constructive for the conversation to go from that point.


    I guess the other thing I mean is that the underlying issue of creepiness is, to me at least, essentially an aesthetic concern. Cockroaches just creep me right the hell out, they're creepy little dudes. It's not like I'm going to have some rational discourse with a cockroach expert and that'll convince me that they're not creepy. I'm not passing any sort of moral judgment on the insects. I'm just saying they're creepy.


    I still get the sense that there's something here you're saying that I want to listen to; I'm just having a hard problem putting my finger on it.
  • Brian,

    I was specifically thinking of a friend of mine who is taking pole dancing classes and has a pole in her apartment -- because she's uncomfortable with her sexuality. Some women would be aghast, others would not.

    I wasn't trying to make that one post about women and their views, just grabbing at it. Men go to movies and have different reactions to different things as well For some men I know, the movie TAKEN was all about ugly, stupid xenophobia. For others was a guy fantasy where a father was able to live out the fantasy of how far he'd go to protect his daughter.

    I'm not trying to speak for women -- and I'm not. I'm pointing out an obvious yet always ignored truth -- how I, or you, or anyone -- see the world or worry about things or are offended by or are turned on by -- is not the same for the other seven billion people on the plant.

    With RPGs we take away our own specific agendas and turn them into active procedures. So one person looking at the rule book might not have any idea what specific players liked about the game or are doing with it. Which was Bret's point. And it was, I think, a good one.
  • Yes, Christopher. That is one of the three reasons he gave in that post. The guy is right there and pretty responsive, I can very well ask him which reasons he wants to tackle and in what order. I don't want to avoid the child sex issue, I just don't find it pertinent before I've found out whether it's to be dealt with separately, in combination with accusations of sexism, or in the context of general sexual demonization. Surely that's not so unreasonable? I simply don't have anything to say about the child sex thing unless I know whether it's just a sideline in an argument about female slavery or actually the main point.
  • edited January 2010
    Adam Dray wrote: I brought it up because on the surface the two games have similar situation. GM plays the Master in both. Players play subservient minions or maids. I don't think that's a crazy comparison.

    Personally, I tend to think of it as a cross between Paranoia and Teenagers From Outer Space. (Well, except that nothing requires the PCs to be teens. And the Master is a heck of a lot more easily defeated than the Computer.)
  • Huh. I was going to write a follow-up but in the time to compose it the thread burnt out. Oh well.

    If someone is interested in talking to me about the premise of Maid (or playing it with me, in which case the premise will be obvious) or the role of stewards and butlers, hit me up in chat.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  • Posted By: RogerI guess the other thing I mean is that the underlying issue of creepiness is, to me at least, essentially an aesthetic concern. Cockroaches just creep me right the hell out, they're creepy little dudes. It's not like I'm going to have some rational discourse with a cockroach expert and that'll convince me that they're not creepy.
    As a quick aside: I love the way that this example implies Roger's an expert on sexy maids. Hot!
  • What I got out of this thread
    By Judd

    This thread began some nice conversations over IM with Bret and Ben. Bret and I will talk about this with Kat, my roommate, both of whom are far more manga/anime savvy than I am.

    Ben gave me a nice starter list (linked here to my Amazon wishlist that I don't use much now that I am on goodreads) so that I can become more manga-literate.

    I think I am pretty much done with this thread. Now I will take my prudish ass and go masturbate while crying, wishing that I had the courage to ask someone I loved to spank me and call me naughty while I was wearing a school girl's outfit.
  • Posted By: Judd
    I think I am pretty much done with this thread. Now I will take my prudish ass and go masturbate while crying, wishing that I had the courage to ask someone I loved to spank me and call me naughty while I was wearing a school girl's outfit.
    All you gotta do is pick up the phone, friend. I'm here for you.
  • edited January 2010
    It is sexualizing girls at a very young age, packaged in a way that seems geared towards children and it becomes even creepier to me when it is noted that it the childish packaging is towards adult.
    Just a heads up: In the USA, we consider anything drawn (especially if its cutesy) to be for kids. In Japan, this rule doesn't hold true at all. For example, Elfien Lied and Berserk both feature nudity and extreme gore. So if you ever do have a daughter... if its from Japan, preview with caution.

    I personally find the game creepy based off the types of people I've seen playing it or talking about it at the local hobby shops. But I can also see myself having a lot of fun playing it (as long as there was no sexual themes in the game, which makes me extremely uncomfortable). I won't ever play it, though.
  • Posted By: Ben LehmanAndy's whole story about indie dudes was great but I have a hunch it's a lie
    Nope.

    One of those games was me running a quick demo session for Jason M, even (ask him!). It wasn't one that was all that dark (those were at GenCon and another con game that I pulled the plug on under the guise of it "being a demo; you can see how it works, got an idea of the game? OK cool, I gotta run to another session kthxbye"), but it kinda broke because, unfamiliar with the tropes of "you stay in your role (here I mean social role, maid) and ham it it, but never leave that role", so it kinda ended awkwardly when Jason's character simply /wouldn't stand for being a maid/, and instead took over the mansion. Overall, it was an ok session but ended awkwardly as we were hitting the rules but not the feel of the game.

    Now, to contrast, the last session I ran was at an anime convention with something like 6 players, one of them S-G's own TonyLB. If you know Tony and his "Muy Macho" RPG style, you know how he rolls: He wants to be hit, and hit others, with in-your-face backstabby drama. The game with Tony went just like any other game that I've run for anime fans/normal RPers. Tony turned up the juice with some PvP stuff to make the game interesting, but he totally didn't step over the common ground of the game: Stabbing the master, nuking the mansion, tearing the system down, and so on. Reason: He gets anime/manga, knows how it work, and played entirely within those lines (even his PvP-ing style was totally normal in the confines of an anime).

    The central problem might be "do you get/know anime or not?" If Yes, then the game goes off regularly regardless of how you normally play. If No, but you're familiar with comedy/zany RP-ing, again no real problem. But if you're looking for hardcore macho gaming and don't really care about the conventions of the media/setting, then that's where those problems occured.
    Posted By: JuddMLwM's text does not gender the master as far as I can tell.
    Neither does Maid: It uses "Master", "Male Master", "Female Master", etc. It's just the convention of the word as pulled from the Japanese version, as it is a word for the archetype of the "Maid/Mistress" role: We didn't use the word Mistress through the book (although, yeah, a Female Master == Mistress) probably because we didn't think about it at the time, but now it would be weird to write "Master/Mistress" every occurance of the word (maybe in a future edition, a footnote that "Master is a word that refers to the archeype portrayed by male masters and female mistresses" or somesuch). As mentioned, most of the examples in the book feature female masters. In the games I've run where I've chosen the gender, I pretty much alternate (favoring young/innocent/weak male masters that need to be protected usually).

    -Andy
  • You know, that's kinda interesting Andy, because it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
    Wouldn't you say the system should (OK maybe not should but...something) help players ''get'' the game even with them not being familiar with anime and manga?
  • Posted By: Andy(maybe in a future edition, a footnote that "Master is a word that refers to the archeype portrayed by male masters and female mistresses" or somesuch)
    Householder? Gender-neutral, at least....
  • Posted By: JuddIt is sexualizing girls at a very young age, packaged in a way that seems geared towards children and it becomes even creepier to me when it is noted that it the childish packaging is towards adult.
    Hmmm. It was never geared towards children. I was even considering posting an "ESRB Rating" "T+ for Teens" on the spine with the barcode-reasons ("Comic Violence" "Adult Themes" "Tobacco Use") on the back. Thing though, in the low numbers it's selling (only recently broke 1000 in pdf/book sales between Direct sales and IPR), the avenues we're selling through (IPR, face-to-face; not Waldenbooks or Barnes and Noble), it never felt needed.
    Posted By: JuddIt is Maid in its context on a game shelf next to D&D and Vampire.
    Put it on the shelf with the manga books, instead. It's tamer than half the stuff there (which admittedly will often feature warnings based on content on the front/back cover), including the manga aimed for young/teen girls. And still tamer than half the US comics as well: Wanted, Y the Last Man or Preacher have far more horrifying content... but you're right, they all feature "Suggested for Mature Readers" label on the back, it might be time to look into posting such a label on Maid as well...

    -Andy
  • Posted By: northerainYou know, that's kinda interesting Andy, because it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
    Wouldn't you say the system should (OK maybe not should but...something) help players ''get'' the game even with them not being familiar with anime and manga?
    Why?

    First off, *everyone* in Japan is familiar with anime and manga, outside of maybe a few remote mountain villages where they're just now realizing that it's not the Tokugawa Shogunate anymore. So the prime audience of the game is that.

    Secondly, even in the US version, everyone under the age of 26 (the prime audience for the game is under 26) is familiar with anime and manga.

    So in terms of widening the audience for the text, it makes much more sense to have an extensive introduction to role-playing games (which only a tiny fraction of the potential anime-and-manga grokking audience understands) than to have some sort of introduction to anime and manga, which frankly go to any bookstore and read for a few minutes.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  • Andy, I'd not include that footnote. The text does a good job of making "master" a gender neutral term. include the footnote re-genders it in a really odd way.
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