So I have the urge to binge shop at IPR again.

edited August 2007 in Story Games
Here's the emerging cycle:
Play traditional d20 style RPG with friends, have some fun but mostly have dissatisfied play experiences,
Reflect on dissatisfaction,
Read web,
Find links to games and actual play reports of cool games,
Buy game(s), (binge shop at IPR)
Read game(s),
Get jazzed,
Try to organize Indie game,
Get poor, often vitriolic and response from group,
Eventually -- maybe-- bribe and cajole people to play an Indie game. (Either from my main group or seeking out new players).
I enjoy play but traditional players are uncomfortable and sort of lost (they never had a total buy in prior to play).
No real communal drive to continue Indie games.
Play Traditional d20 style game....

Anyone share this same cycle?
Any recommendations or suggestions?

I'm to the point of just throwing in the towel and finding a new hobby all together or blowing another 70$ at IPR.

Comments

  • Where do you live? Not, like, address or anything. Just location.

    Chances are I know some people enthusiastic about playing progressive games somewhere within 50 miles of you.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  • Posted By: RustI'm to the point of just throwing in the towel and finding a new hobby all together or blowing another 70$ at IPR.
    You should find a new hobby altogether. It's called story gaming.

    Seriously, just roleplay with your gamer friends and play story games with other friends. Not the easiest route for you, maybe (I don't know your situation), but probably not as hard as you think, and substantially cheaper.
  • I'm in Salt Lake.
  • So, we're supposed to either:

    a) Help you, potentially causing your obsessive binge orders at IPR to cease, or
    b) Not help you, and you'll continue buying Story Games and plugging them to everyone you know on the off chance that someone might want to play?

    >:-)

    Seriously though. What the Sugarbaker said. I used to have this problem, now I maintain two groups and my problem is solved. I'm also enjoying my GURPS game much, much more when I can blow off some Story Game steam with my other group.
  • edited August 2007
    Posted By: RustI'm in Salt Lake.
    Unless you mean the lake itself, this doesn't factor into the difficulty. The difficulty sources are: how many friends you have, and how story gaming is explained and proposed as a social activity.
  • I don't personally know anyone in SLC, although I'd send an e-mail to Jake Norwood who I know used to live in the area.

    I am picking up two non-you hits on NearbyGamers (I wish Findplay was still up). That's three people! That's enough to play Polaris, Dogs in the Vineyard, Shooting the Moon, Shock:! With one more you could play carry! That's too many for Breaking the Ice and Beast Hunters.

    yrs--
    --Ben

    P.S. I know it's supposed to be a joke, but I want to disavow the idea that any of us want you to keep buying games you won't play at IPR. I want you to buy games at IPR, yeah (particularly mine). But what I really want is for you to play games that you enjoy.
  • I tried a bi-weekly Indie Game Pizza night, where I'd get pizza and whomever showed showed and we tried games. It never replaced our trad. game night. It had mixed results. We tried Wushu one night, it just sort of died after one player said, "what ever happened to the normal Skills list that I can just buy skills with skill points and such, i'm sick of these games where the traits are so vague." I just sort of felt bad after that and haven't pushed anything.
  • Ben brings up a good point: you could start with games that require few players, like just two. And yeah, coincidentally, our game is one of them, but you know what? That's one of the reasons we created it.

    So find the most-interested, most open-minded guy or girl among your gaming or even non-gaming friends and try a two-player game. Maybe The Pool, if you want an easy entry. Breaking the Ice, if your play partner likes romantic stories. Beast Hunters, if s/he likes kicking ass and only taking names to notify the relatives of the people you just killed that you're coming for them next.

    Start small, advertise in local places, build a community! We've kicked off a big indie group here in Portland by starting a small yahoo group for a Dogs game (I believe, I wasn't a founding member), and it's blossomed into a full-blown indie group that meets every 5 or 6 weeks with over a dozen participants.
  • Posted By: RustI tried a bi-weekly Indie Game Pizza night, where I'd get pizza and whomever showed showed and we tried games. It never replaced our trad. game night. It had mixed results. We tried Wushu one night, it just sort of died after one player said, "what ever happened to the normal Skills list that I can just buy skills with skill points and such, i'm sick of these games where the traits are so vague." I just sort of felt bad after that and haven't pushed anything.
    Was this with the NearbyGamers crew or a bunch of people who like traditional games who got brow-beat into trying Wushu?

    yrs--
    --Ben
  • Posted By: Ben LehmanWas this with the NearbyGamers crew or a bunch of people who like traditional games who got brow-beat into trying Wushu?
    Yeah - I have a theory, as of yet untested in actual trials with people (but it's almost been proven in fruit flies) but merely based on circumstantial evidence and anecdotes, that you will have better luck pitching story games to non-gamers. For one, there is not years upon years of "training" to undo. For two, maybe "your" gamers honestly do prefer games where you DO or DO NOT kill the Orcs and benefit accordingly.

    They're two almost completely different things, which I think is the point Mike was going for.

    I suggest you check out Meetup.com and similar sites for groups like fiction writers, improv theatre troupes, and the likes. If nothing else, they'll be just as interested as traditional roleplayers would.
  • I bribed and brow-beat one of my regulars; a good friend that I've known for years.

    A few of the nearby guys emailed me, then backed out, so I sort of gave up on it. But looking at it now I see some new names.
  • StoryGames Boston ran weekly for several months before Dev, Nathan, and I attracted a real crowd of regulars. Plenty of people played once or twice and then never came back. Now, Dev, Nathan, and I can all decide not to show up for several weeks in a row (it happens) and the games continue without us. As one of the regulars said this past week, "There's a bunch of new folks who don't know you three as anything other than these guys who show up occasionally." That's awesome.

    Perseverance pays off eventually, at least in my experience. Also, yeah, play with new people who are excited about these kinds of games, not with people you arm-twist.
  • For those who successfully developed a crowd of regulars how did you originally decide where to play? Did you go with a public location or someone's house?
  • Your sad tale of woe isn't too uncommon, and my reply is always the same - your friends are precious. Enjoy gaming with them. If you want to do something they don't, find new people to do it with. If you don't have any local indie-friendly gamers, make some. It's much easier than trying to convert people who've tried it and don't like it.

    (That said, The Shadow of Yesterday is a nice middle ground with real-live skills and attributes. But you can also fall in love with your sister and cry.)
  • Posted By: Rusthow did you originally decide where to play?
    Do what's least creepy and most comfortable. If you are recruiting people you know, you can invite them over and treat it like a normal gaming session, which it is. If they are strangers, some neutral ground is a better bet. It's a social activity! Do what you do for social activities.
  • (But you can also fall in love with your sister and cry.)
    Wait, I can't do that in D&D?

    Shit.

    I guess I have been playing the game wrong.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  • Oh, snap!

    You get sweet, sweet XP for falling in love with your sister and crying. That's what I meant to say!
  • I was a victim of the aforementioned circle. I found a solution.

    To my D&D group I said, fuck off.

    Then I created a much needed site explaining what roleplaying is to new people (you can check it on www.queeselrol.com.ar ...it´s in spanish)
    Have in mind that this hobby in Argentina is almost non-existent.

    Then I waited patiently until, of the hundreds of inquiries and emails about the site and hobby, I found someone newbie and interested enough. I then put her and a friend of mine through some sessions of Trollbabe.

    I´m happy, they´re happy, and I can easily get on to prepare other "crazy games," like some people call them here (ok, actually I call them that...)
    Oh, and word of mouth is working right now.

    Cheers!
  • edited August 2007
    Vitriolic? Yikes. Do tell.
  • The vitriol.... A bit of back ground.
    A very good friend of mine and I were really brought together because of Gaming, but otherwise we have very different styles. Think late 1980's. Think Rocker (him: metallica); think New Wave (me:Echo and the Bunnymen). But somehow Cthulhu broached the differences. So there's always been an allowable level of chiding and poking fun between us on issues.

    He took one look at my copy of My Life with Master. Threw it down (yes on the ground) and said, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen-- so stupid. I'll never play that game." And then just gave me "a look" that I think went beyond our normal chiding, he looked more shocked than the day we went to see The Thin Red Line, where I said it was an amazing film.
  • Posted By: RustHe took one look at my copy of My Life with Master. Threw it down (yes on the ground) and said, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen-- so stupid. I'll never play that game." And then just gave me "a look" that I think went beyond our normal chiding, he looked more shocked than the day we went to see The Thin Red Line, where I said it was an amazing film.
    He threw your book on the ground? Your property? He doesn't sound like much of a friend to treat your stuff so shitty. Plus him giving you some kind of withering look is beyond lame.

    I would have to say that you have no chance of playing any indie game with these guys. You are better off finding other people to play with. People that will treat your stuff (and, by association, you) with respect.
  • Posted By: RustThe vitriol.... A bit of back ground.
    A very good friend of mine and I were really brought together because of Gaming, but otherwise we have very different styles. Think late 1980's. Think Rocker (him: metallica); think New Wave (me:Echo and the Bunnymen). But somehow Cthulhu broached the differences. So there's always been an allowable level of chiding and poking fun between us on issues.

    He took one look at my copy of My Life with Master. Threw it down (yes on the ground) and said, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen-- so stupid. I'll never play that game." And then just gave me "a look" that I think went beyond our normal chiding, he looked more shocked than the day we went to see The Thin Red Line, where I said it was an amazing film.
    I would say you sound like very different people. I don't think you should be surprised that he doesn't share your tastes in gaming beyond a very narrow experience. Not immediately thinking My Life With Master was inspired and falling down to worship at Jason's feet is a troubling personality trait to have in a friend. But just enjoy the things you can share...I don't know....cheesewiz or something.
  • "Any recommendations or suggestions? "

    I've shipped about 20 copies of Panty Explosion to the Salt Lake area over the last year. Someone there is playing indie games. Or at least PE.
  • Jake, you still have work to do, convincing us all those copies are not bought by people who are Otaku and/or pedophiles! ;-)
  • "Jake, you still have work to do, convincing us all those copies are not bought by people who are Otaku and/or pedophiles! ;-) "

    Right. but it's at least a place to start.
  • Heh.

    So, you suggest Rustin goes and plays with pedophiles? ;-)
  • "So, you suggest Rustin goes and plays with pedophiles? ;-) "

    Well... how old is Rustin? I don't want to get in trouble.

    Seriously, I think you have to build your community. 7 months ago Portland did not have an indie games community. It just had a handful of people that wanted to try indie games but couldn't find anyone to play with. It took a few of us taking a chjance and reaching out to start something that has urned into a fantastic, large and active local community with plenty of enthusiastic players and designers. Rustin, I know it's easier to say then do, but I think if you can find just one or two otehr peole interested in giving this a try that it will snowball into a bigger community for you. There must be at least one ofther person on this forum that lives in SLC, right?
  • edited August 2007
    Posted By: RustI tried a bi-weekly Indie Game Pizza night, where I'd get pizza and whomever showed showed and we tried games. It never replaced our trad. game night. It had mixed results. We tried Wushu one night, it just sort of died after one player said, "what ever happened to the normal Skills list that I can just buy skills with skill points and such, i'm sick of these games where the traits are so vague." I just sort of felt bad after that and haven't pushed anything.
    So what you need is "gateway games" -- games that dress up like traditionals, but have a few fun story-game concepts in them. Games I can think of that have skill lists:

    Spirit of the Century
    The Shadow of Yesterday
    Agon

    ... those are off the top of my head.

    Once you've got them going on that, you can start to "subtract" the skills part. Maybe introduce them to a PDQ game (Truth & Justice, Zorcerer of Zo, etc) with the idea that Qualities are like Aspects, only merged with skills. See where that goes.

    Then get freaky on 'em.

    But you can't throw some people (traditional gamers may be a part of this depending on their tastes) into deep water without teaching them how to swim.
  • Fred, don't forget Burning Wheel.
  • Posted By: Thunder_GodFred, don't forget Burning Wheel.
    True enough.
  • Posted By: Thunder_GodFred, don't forget Burning Wheel.
    I've had much better luck with SotC when it comes to players burdened with decades of trad RPG experience. Which is too bad, as I think BW is the shizzle.

    I mean, SotC is also the shizzle, but I just never get to play BW.
  • Posted By: RustI'm to the point of just throwing in the towel and finding a new hobby all together or blowing another 70$ at IPR.
    Rustin, I've been in your situation (and still am somewhat). There are some threads on here and the Forge where I've lamented about my HERO group in particular.

    It took a while to work up to it, but you know what I did? I stopped playing with those people. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my chest. Spending sessions, week after week, bored out of my mind and hoping they would someday "get it" was just soul-crushing. Life is too damn short to spend your time waiting for other people to change.

    The best gaming happens when everyone at the table is invested and enthusiastic about the game, regardless of what RPG is being played. Go and find people who want to play the games in which you're interested. It may take time, but that's okay. Better to wile away that time with some lonely fun (reading RPG books, making PCs, hanging out on gaming fora) than with group frustration.
  • Posted By: RustPlay traditional d20 style RPG with friends, have some fun but mostly have dissatisfied play experiences,
    Reflect on dissatisfaction,
    Read web,
    Find links to games and actual play reports of cool games,
    Buy game(s), (binge shop at IPR)
    Read game(s),
    Get jazzed,
    Try to organize Indie game,
    Get poor, often vitriolic and response from group,
    Once I:
    - Contacted my traditional D20 group's significant others.
    - Told them, do you want to know what all the excitement is about? You don't have to read or do anything, just show up. Pizza is on me.
    - Pull out an easy to play indie game. The one I used was Dread (Jenga). More info here and here.
    - Keep the session short (2-3 hours) and relateable (modern day horror works).
    - BAM! My tradition D20 group's significant others love it and rave about it to them!
    - Inevitably my traditional D20 group tries to get their significant other to play D&D.
    - In my specific case, they had a horrible time and say "can we play that other game instead?"
    - BAM! My traditional D20 group also plays Dread.
    - Some of them reject it. Others are interested in seeing what other indie games are out there.

    Your results may vary! But it worked! So well that my friend's significant others became my gaming group for a while!
  • "So what you need is "gateway games" -- games that dress up like traditionals, but have a few fun story-game concepts in them."

    Nah. What you need is sex appeal. Drop your dorky friends and invite some ladies over for some provocative, sexy and adventurous gaming. Can I suggest Shooting the Moon, 1001 Nights, Perfect or my own Panty Explosion? Think about it, would you rather spend the evening with a bunch of geeky friends who would rather be playing warhammer or have a night with the girls who want to try something new and cool?

    I'm serious by the way. I've had a lot of fun inviting my female non-gamer friends over to play games. As long as you stay away from geeky stuff you should be okay. Make sure to provide snacks and drinks, comfortable seating and good music.

    Jake
  • Posted By: jenskotPosted By: RustPlay traditional d20 style RPG with friends, have some fun but mostly have dissatisfied play experiences,
    Reflect on dissatisfaction,
    Read web,
    Find links to games and actual play reports of cool games,
    Buy game(s), (binge shop at IPR)
    Read game(s),
    Get jazzed,
    Try to organize Indie game,
    Get poor, often vitriolic and response from group,
    Once I:
    - Contacted my traditional D20 group's significant others.
    - Told them, do you want to know what all the excitement is about? You don't have to read or do anything, just show up. Pizza is on me.
    - Pull out an easy to play indie game. The one I used was Dread (Jenga). More infohereandhere.
    - Keep the session short (2-3 hours) and relateable (modern day horror works).
    - BAM! My tradition D20 group's significant others love it and rave about it to them!
    - Inevitably my traditional D20 group tries to get their significant other to play D&D.
    - In my specific case, they had a horrible time and say "can we play that other game instead?"
    - BAM! My traditional D20 group also plays Dread.
    - Some of them reject it. Others are interested in seeing what other indie games are out there.

    Your results may vary! But it worked! So well that my friend's significant others became my gaming group for a while!

    John is awesome.
  • Posted By: jenskot
    Once I:
    - Contacted my traditional D20 group's significant others.
    - Told them, do you want to know what all the excitement is about? You don't have to read or do anything, just show up. Pizza is on me.
    - Pull out an easy to play indie game. The one I used was Dread (Jenga). More infohereandhere.
    - Keep the session short (2-3 hours) and relateable (modern day horror works).
    - BAM! My tradition D20 group's significant others love it and rave about it to them!
    - Inevitably my traditional D20 group tries to get their significant other to play D&D.
    - In my specific case, they had a horrible time and say "can we play that other game instead?"
    - BAM! My traditional D20 group also plays Dread.
    - Some of them reject it. Others are interested in seeing what other indie games are out there.

    Your results may vary! But it worked! So well that my friend's significant others became my gaming group for a while!
    Dude! You stole their wives / girlfriends???

    ...

    ...that's a tactic I hadn't actually considered. Bravo.
  • John is awesome.
    Seconded mightly. That is some deviously brilliant shit, John.
  • John, you are like the indie Vaylen.
  • John has a hulling station in Queens that he uses.
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