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Posted By: JesseThinking about it a little more, I would find irony in that I'm actually much more exclusionary about the word story-game. I actively dislike its broadening application.Jesse
Posted By: MarcoBecause once you let GURPS in there, there goes the neighborhood?-Marco
Posted By: misubaI think the people who seek out the experience they know by the term "role-playing game" have a point when they say it's already hard enough to know whether it'll be the experience they want, without us throwing things like stakes-resolution and player-control currencies under that rubric.
Posted By: Moreno R.How can you define a rpg on the basis of the kind of experience, when you can't define that experience?
Posted By: Moreno R.Mike, it's an hopeless endeavor, trying to define "rpgs" as the games that give you the same experience as D&D, when even with D&D, you can't count on having the same experience with two different groups...There are the ones who plays what I have seen called "totemic D&D": the game manual is on the table, but everybody gloat about the fact that go entire sessions without rolling any die...There are the ones who play in full tactical-strategic mode, with miniatures, rulers, etc, inside a dungeon, without any "story"There are the ones who play the GM's story, and no matter the way you go at a crossroad in the dungeon, you will meet the NPC who will tell you what you will have to do.There are the ones who never, ever, set foot in a dungeon....and many others.
Posted By: ValamirBut to me...its an RPG, and holding it out as an example of a Story Game that's not an RPG makes me cringe.
Posted By: ValamirStory Game, if it is to have any use as a term at all, best fits as a sub set of RPGs (egads NOT the other way around) having certain general commonalities around approach and techniques for play.Once Upon a Time?...its a card game...a really fun card game...but its a card game...one using a narrative structure in its rules, but that narrative structure is being used the same way as Rummy uses melds...as a game technique. Its a card game.
Posted By: James_NostackPersonally, I'd define "story games" as, "whatever the people on S-G want it to mean, which tends to be (but is not exclusively) games from about 20-30 designers sharing certain features and a general emphasis on face-stabbing."
Wittgenstein first asks the reader to perform a thought experiment: to come up with a definition of the word "game". While this may at first seem a simple task, he then goes on to lead us through the problems with each of the possible definitions of the word "game". Any definition which focuses on amusement leaves us unsatisfied since the feelings experienced by a world class chess player are very different from those of a circle of children playing Duck Duck Goose. Any definition which focuses on competition will fail to explain the game of catch, or the game of solitaire. And a definition of the word "game" which focuses on rules will fall on similar difficulties.The essential point of this exercise is often missed. Wittgenstein's point is not that it is impossible to define "game", but that we don't have a definition, and we don't need one, because even without the definition, we use the word successfully. Everybody understands what we mean when we talk about playing a game, and we can even clearly identify and correct inaccurate uses of the word, all without reference to any definition that consists of necessary and sufficient conditions for the application of the concept of a game.Wittgenstein argues that definitions emerge from what he termed "forms of life", roughly the culture and society in which they are used. Wittgenstein stresses the social aspects of cognition; to see how language works, we have to see how it functions in a specific social situation...Wittgenstein rejects the idea that ostensive definitions can provide us with the meaning of a word. For Wittgenstein, the thing that the word stands for does not give the meaning of the word...Why is it that we are sure a particular activity — e.g. Olympic target shooting — is a game while a similar activity — e.g. military sharp shooting — is not? Wittgenstein's explanation is tied up with an important analogy. How do we recognize that two people we know are related to one another? We may see similar height, weight, eye color, hair, nose, mouth, patterns of speech, social or political views, mannerisms, body structure, last names, etc. If we see enough matches we say we've noticed a family resemblance. It is perhaps important to note that this is not always a conscious process — generally we don't catalog various similarities until we reach a certain threshold, we just intuitively see the resemblances. Wittgenstein suggests that the same is true of language. We are all familiar (i.e. socially) with enough things which are games and enough things which are not games that we can categorize new activities as either games or not.
Everybody understands what we mean when we talk about playing a game, and we can even clearly identify and correct inaccurate uses of the word, all without reference to any definition that consists of necessary and sufficient conditions for the application of the concept of a game.
Posted By: David ArtmanPosted By: ValamirBut to me...its an RPG, and holding it out as an example of a Story Game that's not an RPG makes me cringe.
Posted By: fnord3125I haven't been on this forum long. Did the term "Story Game" get defined at some point.
A story game is a game in which players can directly make things up as part of an imagined story, and things the players make up can in turn influence the interactions with the game rules.
Posted By: ValamirJust because some people have visions of what an RPG is supposed to look like that currently doesn't include Uni...or Capes...or whatever doesn't mean we surrender the term. Better...expand peoples vision of what an RPG can be and is capable of.
Posted By: ValamirMike, I meant "surrender the term RPG".If we start calling the fringe games we play "Story Games" and intentially avoid calling them "RPGs" because a bunch of people refuse to accept that they're RPG's...then we've surrendered the term RPG to those people.Using the term Story Games as a signal of a particular play experience you can expect from this kind of RPG vs. some other kind of RPG is useful. Using the term "Story Now" for that purpose is also useful. Using the term "Story Game" or "Story Now" as a way to avoid the issue, I consider capitulation, yes.That's what I meant. I'm not sure by your question if that's what you understood me to mean.
Posted By: MarcoPeople have called all kinds of things not-RPGs (or !RPGs if you prefer).Capes,My Life With Master, and, weirdlyDogs in the Vineyard(which is odd because it's totally a traditional RPG). Story-Games shuts that nonsense down (intentionally or not, who cares).
Posted By: Jonathan WaltonPEOPLE:We don't have a term for all these weird indie games. Both World of Synnibar and 1001 Nights are indie games. WTF? How will we ever distinguish the hippy stuff from the grognard stuff?ANDY:Doo doo doo. I'm going to start a forum called "Story Games" were we can casually talk about all kind of stuff that might or might not be RPGs.SG FORUM USERS:Dirty hippy game stuff! D20 sucks! Brain damage!PEOPLE:Hey, all those people on Story Games talk about dirty hippie indie games all the time. Clearly that's what "story games" means; games that are about thestory.SG FORUM USERS:4e rocks! Githyaki 4ever! Man, you know what's awesome? Killing things and taking their stuff.PEOPLE:WTF? Why are you on SG?
Posted By: JDCorleyCan't believe nobody mentioned Arkham Horror yet...
Posted By: fnord3125Youcoulddo a lot of focus on story in AH, I suppose, but when I play it it doesn't really happen.
Posted By: JDCorleyEdit: Second clause? Second clause of what? Did I sign a contract without looking at it again? Was this part of some credit card application fine print that I didn't read that there was some clause that I had to adhere to when I talked about stories and games?
Posted By: Thunder_GodMike, I have a problem with that; it's based only on history, and has no substantive content/definition in it.
Posted By: Filip LuszczykActually, this sounds more like D&D/d20 and their kin to me, the status of which as "RPGs" is often contested by people. The kind of games that people identify as "role-playing games" without arguing tend to be of the BRP branch (or whichever game was the first to introduce a heavier focus on the simulation of "living in the world" and role-playing than wargaming stuff,